139: Job Searching with Sarah Baker Andrus

Welcome back to the Career Clarity Show! We’re going to talk about a topic that is top of mind for anybody who is navigating a career change – the job search. There’s such a meaningful difference between the part of your journey where you’re getting clear on what it is that you’d like to do, such as using the four pillars of Career Clarity methodology to come up with the ideas that feel most aligned with your values and your needs and your preferences in this season of life. And then actually being able to step into jobs like that. 

If you have been wondering or worrying about how you’re going to pull off an effective job search as a career changer, this episode is definitely for you. Even if you’re still in the clarity seeking part, trying to figure out exactly what it is that you want to pivot into and you’re not quite yet at the job search stage, go ahead and give today’s episode a listen because there are going to be plenty of high value tactical nuggets for you to store away for when you’re ready to start executing on your own. 

My guest to speak about all things job search and career change is Sarah Baker Andrus. Sarah is the founder and CEO of our careers, a career coaching business. She’s worked on all sides of the hiring equation as a recruiter, a hiring manager and a career counselor serving in the corporate world nonprofits and academia. 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Website:  Avarah Careers
• Facebook: Avarah Careers Facebook
• Linked In: Sarah Andrus
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04   

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I am your host, Lisa Miller. And I am pleased as punch that you are with us today. On today’s episode of The Career Clarity Show, we’re going to talk about a topic that is top of mind for anybody who is navigating a career change. And that’s doing the job search. Because there’s such a meaningful difference between the part of your journey where you’re getting clear on what it is that you’d like to do, you know, using the four pillars of Career Clarity, Show methodology, to come up with the ideas that feel most aligned with your values and your needs and your preferences in this season of life. And then actually being able to step into jobs like that. So if you have been wondering or worrying about how you’re going to pull off an effective job search as a career changer. Today’s episode of the podcast is definitely for you. And even if you’re still in the clarity seeking part, I’m trying to figure out exactly what it is that you want to pivot into. And you’re not quite yet at the job search stage but you think you will be in the next couple of months. Definitely give today’s episode a listen to because they’re going to be plenty of high value tactical nuggets for you to store away for when you’re ready to start executing on your own. My guest to speak about thinking all things job search and career change is Sarah Baker Andrus. Sarah is the founder and CEO of our careers, a career coaching business. She’s worked on all sides of the hiring equation as a recruiter, a hiring manager and a career counselor serving in the corporate world nonprofits and academia. When it comes to the hiring process, and how it works from the inside out, she’s seen it all. In addition, she currently teaches as an adjunct professor and serves as the Assistant Director of Career Services at the University of Delaware coaching MBA students and alumni. When she’s not working, she enjoys reading, writing good food and wine running through Delaware’s beautiful parks and hanging with the people she loves the most. Sarah, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Sarah Baker Andrus  2:39  

Lisa, I’m so glad to be here and excited for our conversation today.

Lisa Lewis Miller  2:44  

Well, I’m so delighted to have you on as someone who is an expert in all parts of the job search because when someone is going through a career change, so often they can feel like all the tools that have served them in their career pathing and their job searching prior are now no longer working. You know, they used to have a really robust network, they used to have a template resume that all you got to do is just update to add your most recent accomplishments on to, they used to know the trade associations to plug into, or the ways to answer questions that would be most relevant to someone else in their space. When you’re pulling off a career change, you might be changing the title of the roles you’re going for, you might be changing your industry, you might be changing the city or state that you’re working in or country that you’re working in. And each of those adds considerations and levels of complexity to the process. So I’m delighted that you are with us sharing your brilliance today. But I want to start with asking what got you interested in the hiring process and navigating it effectively?

Sarah Baker Andrus  3:53  

Sure. You know, I think Lisa like, like many of us, I stumbled upon this work that I love starting a relatively random job and just really finding myself in it. I was in graduate school and I got an internship and or graduate assistantship I in in an internship office. And there I learned how to advise and help adult students who were coming back to school to change careers. And I’ve got to tell you, it was so inspiring to see these people who at the time were, you know, probably 1520 years older than I was actually have the motivation and the curiosity and the commitment to make a career change at a different stage of life. And of course, that’s who you know we work with now that’s that has really changed for me and that that started a lifetime of fascination with how we choose careers and sometimes how how careers choose us. The real desire to to help people more be more intentional with those choices. So, you know, I have really spent my entire career fully immersed in everybody else’s careers, whether it was my early work as a career counselor, and then moving into corporate recruiting roles and, and becoming a hiring manager, myself leading a recruiting team. I’m just fascinated by what, what differentiates people who get the job, versus people who necessarily might not get the job? And what are the nuances that people who are able to land the job they want? What are they doing differently? What, what sets them apart in the hiring managers mind? I’ve been watching this for a really long time. And and I think that some meaningful patterns have emerged, and I love sharing that information with the people like your listeners.

Lisa Lewis Miller  6:00  

Well, fair, I think you teed that up perfectly. Now, the obvious follow up question is, what are the nuances? What are the differences in the patterns that you notice between folks who are effectively going about their job search activities versus those who might think they are but who aren’t getting the results that they want?

Sarah Baker Andrus  6:20  

If you think the answers were in your introduction to this topic, where you said that people are not necessarily looking at the same trade associations, for example, or we don’t necessarily our resume not work and may not work anymore, if we’re pivoting to something different. And it really goes back to skill identification. So when we’re talking about making a pivot or changing a career, in most cases, we’re taking a skill set, we can still feel really confident about. And we’re turning it on its head a little bit, or we’re spinning the axis a little bit, we are not doing a full revolution. In most cases, in most cases, it’s a shift. And so then it becomes really fully owning those skills and those traits, examining them thoroughly. And learning how to translate those skills and abilities to perhaps a new language or nomenclature that might be used in a different industry. Because often I find, and I don’t know if this has been your experience, too, but many people overestimate the differences and underestimate their capacity. So I think it’s really helpful to do that full skill and trait assessment to determine what you know, for example, this disability you have here with, say, project management. Think of the number of industries, those skills that are included in project management might apply to many, many. And that’s just one example.

Lisa Lewis Miller  8:12  

I think that makes a lot of sense to be thinking about the transferability. Because I think you’re absolutely right that so often, it can feel like a bigger leap to us and we haven’t done it, then it might look like to a hiring manager, when they can see the transferable parts of your experience.

Sarah Baker Andrus  8:31  

Right. And it’s that ability to be fluent in the language to talk about yourself that way. So for example, one of my clients was making a shift. It was a nuance shift, though he had been with a very traditional industry organization company in his field, and wanted to move to the new technological platform that was doing the same work. Right. So how did he prove that this very brick and mortar experience that he had was going to transfer to serving a similar purpose in a high tech industry? And it was all about walking him through what was the same and then him becoming fluent in what was different. So, for example, a piece of his experience was overseeing massive customer service departments. Okay. Well, in another organization particularly intact, that’s going to be called something different, probably not customer service, probably client success, probably or customer support, perhaps. So even those little tweaks of our language and especially on our resume and in conversations, how we talk about what we’re doing, he was able to pick up those different words, and it’s really about doing homework to and thoroughly researching it. how these things are discussed in the place you want to go?

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:04  

Well, Sarah, you’re hitting on a really interesting paradox, which is that, for the most part, the roles that you think that you might like to pivot into that you have a hunch would be a good fit, are likely ones where you have a lot of transferable skills. And being able to show those transferable skills in that the lingo of the person or the industry, or the organization that you’re moving towards, is actually 90% of the challenge in the process. It’s not even necessarily identifying what your transferable skills are, but it’s learning how to paint the picture of them in the right. jargon and the right verbage. To be taken seriously. That’s exactly right. And the example that you gave on, you know, customer support versus customer service, might sound Semitic, to somebody listening, it might be like, seriously, that one word difference is going to make a difference. But the answer is, absolutely. Because there’s, there’s a certain piece of this, that is proving you have done your homework, just like you were saying, Sarah, to show that you can talk the talk in the place that you want to go. And subtle little word changes like that become these triggers that prove your competence and your capability, more so than the transferable skills themselves actually do.

Sarah Baker Andrus  11:39  

Absolutely. And and it’s not just in conversation, but it’s also in how we use these words, on our resume to get through the applicant tracking systems. And it shows that you’re one of us. So when I think of, you know, another nuance that comes up in, in those who are successful at pivoting, is that they’re able to quickly build rapport and relationships with the decision makers, who, you know, who are ultimately going to decide if you fit with the team. And part of the way we show we fit with the team is by using the right vocabulary. And that may feel a bit trivial. But if you think about it, you know, how often do we travel to different parts of the country or other parts of the world where things are just said differently. And when you don’t know that you could, you know, but you could make a cultural error. And you can do that with organizations and employers too.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:40  

And what you’re hitting on is so nuanced, and so infuriating. It is, and it’s also the way that the game is played. And I almost feel like when you’re thinking about job search, you have to go into it with the mindset of this is a game. And I need to figure out the rules of this game. Because that’s how you ultimately get the offers and get the options that you want. And even if you disagree with how the rules are made, and how the game is played, and you see that having these kinds of biases, when someone is reviewing your resume might create discrimination, and all sorts of issues in the process. It’s a really frustrating paradox, but it’s also the reality. And it’s, I feel like I don’t know what your feelings are on this era. But I feel like it’s such a shame that our system is set up this way where teeny tiny word choice and word modification can make the difference between getting an interview and not getting an interview. Right? The shame that our system is not set up in a way where the transferable skills can transcend semantic differences like that. And I want talented capable people to get those jobs. And if you have to bend over backwards and play the game to get those jobs, so be it.

Sarah Baker Andrus  14:10  

Well, this also leads to something that you said about one’s network. And I feel as though this topic especially is the you know, yet another reason why leveraging your network as you’re going through this process is critical. Because what what the people we have relationships with what they do for us is they help us translate. And if we can have kind of an open curious approach to this, rather than maybe a little bit of a resentment, like why should I have to do all this work? Well, what if instead, we thought, well, let me be curious, let’s approach this like learning a new language. Let’s approach this as I would If I were going to a foreign country, and I’m going to, if I were going to a foreign country, the first people I would call it, or the people who have already visited that country, I would be in touch with them. And I would I would ask them about, you know, should I wear slacks or shorts or what’s okay here? You know, I would find out what the norms are, and looking for a new job. And a new industry is no different than that. So when it comes to our network, I think people have kind of a limited view of how our network can serve us. For example, let’s say you work in the marketing field, and you want to, you’ve worked very much in the sort of the, let’s say, print advertising, something not so digitally based, but you’re really interested in moving into more digital media, or maybe you’ve been in a traditional advertising firm, and you want to go more into influencer marketing. So you may think, well, everyone I know is they’re just, you know, small town agency, people, they don’t really know what’s happening in the influencer world. Well, that may be true of most of the people in your network, but you don’t know who the people in your network know. So it doesn’t stop there. And I think we are too quick to rule out, even our close friends and relations, when it comes to networking. And we forget that somebody’s best friend might be involved in something that we want to do, it might be in a new town or someplace different, doesn’t mean they won’t have good insights for us. I also think we tend to dramatically underestimate people’s willingness to chat with us. And we, I think it’s our fear. It’s hard talking to new people, we don’t want to bother them, our brains can tell us all kinds of reasons why good reasons why we might not want to reach out to somebody. Most of them are not true. And and they can’t be validated. And in fact, the opposite is true. At least that’s been, you know, my experience and the experience of my clients. I had a client who was so reticent to reach out to people she knows now, some people are reticent to reach out to people, they don’t know, we’re just different that way. And it’s okay. As we’re talking through this, and I suggested that she make the list and I said, make a list of people who love you. Let’s just start there. And let’s not prejudge them, but let’s just assume they’re in a position to help you instead of assuming that they’re not. And we walked through it. And sure enough, as she’s talking through these people who love her, you know, one of whom was her neighbor, she said, you know, what I think about it, I think her husband works for Comcast. And I thought, well, there you go. And so often, if we can remove the cobwebs of our fears, we find that there are people we know, and that these are people who would be willing to help us, and that those conversations can be fun. And if we look at them as research, rather than focusing on a specific outcome, people will be very happy to talk to us.

Lisa Lewis Miller  18:36  

I love the way that you’re drawing this connection between fear and pre judging others, and curiosity. Because it really does feel like the biggest things that can be in our way, when we are trying to get a connection, open a door somewhere, can be our own perceptions of other people’s willingness to help. And our belief that we need to be really ROI Focused, like well, I have talked to that person unless they can give me a job. And the way that you’re highlighting the role of curiosity, and just having an open discussion and a conversation, and even starting with that inner circle of people who love you before you even start to think about the people who may care a little bit less about you, but you still have a professional connection to and before we even get to the circle outside of that have a random folks that you haven’t been in touch with in 10 years who you went to undergrad with, right? There’s so much richness and so much potential value, even starting in those close in circles, if you give yourself the spaciousness to be curious, and to not prejudge them and their willingness to help and support You

Sarah Baker Andrus  20:01  

not only that, but you know, if you start with those conversations, that’s good practice, these are people who are going to care about you no matter what. So it’s a great place to start, because you can practice, you know how you’re going to answer the question, tell me about yourself. And, and I could say to you, Hey, Lisa, could I just give you that answer? And I’d love to hear what you think of it, or I just want some practice. Don’t tell me what you think of it, I just want to say it out loud. You know, you can really, you can tap into the wisdom of your community in many ways. And I do think that we tend to focus on those professional connections or, you know, even people maybe you haven’t connected with and in a number of years, there’s no reason why it’s too late to reach out to them, if you remember them well. Because if you remember them fondly, there’s a really good chance they remember you fondly. It’s just the way we humans work. And they’re going to be delighted to hear from you. And especially if you approach it as research, hey, I’m thinking about a change. I’d love your perception on some of the things that I’m chewing on right now, I’d love to know what you think you’ve got some experience in that area. What do you think are the most important skills right now, one of my clients just got a great job and learning and development in the international development space. That was her goal, right? She wants to travel, she wants to use her foreign language. And she did a lot of these kinds of outreach conversations to people she used to work with. Who were currently, you know, involved in some of that work. And Sippel, what do you think are the most important skills for me to highlight? That’s, these are people you can ask any question? They may not have the answer, but there’s nothing stopping you from answer asking.

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:13  

And the other beautiful thing about that approach, too, is that, so often, when we think about job searching, we put all of this pressure onto our resume, my resume has to be the be all and all it has to tell our personal and professional narrative perfectly, we need to get all the exact word choice, right, kind of like we were talking about before. And when your strategy includes the opportunity to have connected conversations with people who love you, or remember you fondly. Inside of those conversations, there’s the spaciousness to be human. Mm hmm. And be imperfect, and tell your story in a way where maybe it has a flub, and maybe you get feedback, and maybe someone reflects something back to you that you don’t even realize or see in yourself, yes, I’m going to be a valuable asset for your search later on.

Sarah Baker Andrus  23:03  

Exactly. I love that. And when we think about the resume, specifically, I do find people put too much weight on a resume. So often people will contact me and they’ll say, I just need a new resume. And I’ll say, do you really is that all you need? That is rarely the case?

Lisa Lewis Miller  23:25  

Well, and I think for anybody listening who may have ever uttered those words yourself, maybe this is a good moment for some reflection and some introspection on if the resume was really the only issue. You know, what? Would I be able to know that? Or would it be worthwhile to get some feedback on maybe my entire approach to make sure that my larger strategy is working for me, and that the resume as a tactic and a piece within that is resonating with the bigger picture, mission and vision for where I’m trying to go?

Sarah Baker Andrus  24:02  

Precisely. And the other thing that concerns me about that approach is that it tells me the person is sort of doing the, the spray and pray where we apply for everything, and we’re not selective and and when I think about the people that that tend to be most successful in this effort, they are individuals who are very strategically targeting employers that meet their needs. Now then, if you take a step back from that, you really need to look at what are your needs? And you really need to examine, first, what do you want? And I really, I think it’s about flipping the question from a typical job Hunter question of will they hire me? Well, that’s a that’s a passive question that’s making me sit in this reactive situation where I’m waiting waiting for things Somebody else versus do I want to work here, which is a proactive, powerful position. And that attitude will come through in an interview, do I want to work here empowers you to ask important questions that matter to you about culture, about work life balance, about management style, about expectations in terms of performance and what success looks like. So I love starting with the bigger, deeper issues, and I know you do as well. Where do you want to be? And what’s important to you? And how are you going to bring that that magic that makes you you? How are you going to bring that to the workplace in a way that’s going to help you thrive? Those are the conversations that light me out.

Lisa Lewis Miller  25:56  

And you know, Sarah, the other thing that comes from starting in that place of knowing your needs and doing an assessment of does this organization and this opportunity meet them is that that’s like 80% of your interview prep right there.

Sarah Baker Andrus  26:09  

Exactly.

Lisa Lewis Miller  26:11  

You can walk into the interview being so confident, and enthusiastic, so clear. And, you know, I’m sure that you hear time and time again, and I’m sure you’ve said as a hiring manager, I’d rather hire the person who’s most enthusiastic and hungry and interested, rather than the person who just looks best on paper, or who looks the most servation. On paper

Sarah Baker Andrus  26:36  

100%, I was working with a mom who had been at home for a while, and very, very strong accounting skills, CPA really, really solid, but knew for a fact she did not want to go back into the Big Four company where she had previously been working, she wanted, perhaps to bring those skills to a community organization or a small business that could really value those, you know, her experience and background but offer her a lifestyle that was going to work for her family. And we walked through a complete evaluation point by point, you know, how many hours you legitimately want to work every week? And how long do you want your commute to be? And when you think about, you know, the kind of work that you want to be doing using those CPA skills, what is the kind of work you want to be doing, because there’s so many choices, and to get very granular does boost your confidence. Not only that, to take it back to networking for a moment, the more clarity you have on what you’re looking for, the better your connections are going to be able to help you. So if somebody says to you, oh, you know, Lisa, could you know, I’m looking for something could Kojic? Could you help me out? And you say, Well, what are you looking for? And I say, Well, I’m open, you give me nothing to work with. Right? So the more specificity we can bring to this, the better people who are in a position to help us can really be of service.

Lisa Lewis Miller  28:19  

And this is not to say that you shouldn’t have those curious exploratory research conversation. Absolutely. They’re

Sarah Baker Andrus  28:25  

very valuable.

Lisa Lewis Miller  28:27  

There’s a tension there of people feeling this pressure of Well, I have to know exactly what I want before I talk to anybody. And so I think

Sarah Baker Andrus  28:35  

glad you brought that up. I think that’s critical. So there are different kinds of conversations. There’s the big research, I’m curious, I’m exploring conversation. And then once you have that clarity, then there’s the conversations that that can really give you direct insight into it into organizations and referrals and things of that nature.

Lisa Lewis Miller  28:59  

Well, and I’d even argue to that, that once you get that clarity, it’s a great excuse to follow back up with everyone you had a research conversation with to share an update and to make a second, ask of them. Don’t stop yourself from starting because you’re not clear. Go out there, have the conversations, do the exploration, do the research. And as you start narrowing in and focusing follow up with all of those people who are so kind and generous to give you their time and their brains before to say thanks again for our conversation based on the findings of my research. Now what I’m looking for and what I need is blank. And then whatever your corresponding ask is, do you know anybody who works in this industry? Do you have any contact at this organization? You know, would you be willing to look at my resume now that I’ve decided your role is the role that I want to go do and the next stage of my career.

Sarah Baker Andrus  29:56  

What I love about this, Lisa is that it has signed The piece that most of us forget, which is staying in touch. And that is the key to a robust network of champions who are really going to be on your side is following up and keeping them posted, and say, you know, getting back in touch and saying, Hey, by the way, I see there’s this opening. And I wonder if you have any insight on that, on that job is there you know, any approach that you could help me with, or just Hey, Bob, you know, I just wanted to let you know, I’m applying for these four jobs. I’m so excited. I’m a finalist for this one. I’m thrilled, just keeping in touch. It’s a really nice way to check in, say, thank you find a reason to connect, and people. Appreciate that deeply.

Lisa Lewis Miller  30:49  

I love that. Well, Sarah, let me take our conversation into the direction of, let’s say that you’ve been doing your informational conversations, gathering information, doing your research, you’ve gotten clear on what you love to do next. And now you’re reaching out with a specific ask of, hey, will you introduce me to so and so or will you submit my resume as a referral, and you’ve gotten into your first interview, and you’re walking into this interview, knowing I have an unusual background, I am going to look a little non traditional, a little different from many of the other candidates that they are going to be speaking with. And I know I’ve got some gaps, you know, they someone is wanting to move into a role. And maybe they did project management, in education or for a university. And now they want to go do project management for a tech company. That tech company, let’s say uses a software, or does things in a specific way that you just haven’t had an opportunity to be exposed to in a professional setting. And try as you might to have found a course or certification or something like that, you just can’t quite get the same thing as having done that work. So you’re walking into this interview, knowing there is a specification that has been put out there that this company needs that I don’t have, how do you coach or advise people in that kind of an interview scenario of what to say and how to say it?

Sarah Baker Andrus  32:30  

This is such a great question. And I was recently working with a client Kelly, who’s a former school teacher, math teacher, high school math, and she has killer project management skills, as you can imagine teachers have to. And what she was looking for is a quality assurance role that requires a lot of that same attention to detail, but also uses software technology that she had not been exposed to. So the first thing that we worked on, is how to frame her experience so that he hit on many of the references to attention to detail in the job posting. So the job posting can give us lots of clues when it comes to language. And so we worked on integrating that into her opening statement. Because no matter what they ask you as a first question, you can still have your opening statement and tweak it, you know, as long as you’re practiced with it. And to address it right up front that she was aware of the software that they’re using, and own that and say, Hey, I, I know you’re using a sauna here. And I’ve never personally had experience with a sauna. But when I looked on their website and looked at the characteristics of the software, it really reminded me of exactly how I’m using some of the project management tools that our learning management systems sit on in education. I was surprised at how remarkably similar they are. And while I don’t have that background, I’ve been told that I’m a pretty quick learner and I have a high degree of confidence that I will be able to, to use what I’ve already done to to learn that quickly.

Lisa Lewis Miller  34:23  

Sarah, what I love about that approach is it can feel really easy to want to hide that kind of thing and sort of under the rug but behind the closet door turn out lock the door and staring straight into it. Yes and thinking about proactivity and vulnerability being your perfect protection. Yes. Is such a great strategy to just lay it out on the table.

Sarah Baker Andrus  34:51  

Well the other thing you gain with that is you gain a you are doing a check if this manager is not going to be the sort of person who could see that kind of potential, or who could tolerate even the briefest learning curve, you probably don’t want to work there, or you probably don’t want to work for this person. So it is a great test for you to be upfront. Because why would you want to get into an organization based on something you were less than authentic about and then be faced with failure?

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:28  

You phrase that question? Like, it’s such an obvious one. Mm hmm. And when folks are in the job search, that anxiety and that people pleasing pressure of Yes, oh, my gosh, I just have to get this no matter what, even if I’m seeing red flags all over the place. Is, is real. So I really appreciate you articulating that question that explicitly. If that baldly

Sarah Baker Andrus  35:55  

guide, I’m sure you’ve seen what I’ve seen, which is that people who, who take that approach of people pleasing and trying to present themselves as the candidate that the hiring manager wants, and some people are really good at that. They they can wind up repeatedly getting themselves into situations where they’re not set up for success. And then that begins to have a meaningful impact on your career. And so what I always tell people is, hey, look, if if you’re not a fit, you’re not a fit, and you dodged a bullet. You know, if if you are missing something that that that that is that critical. You’ve dodged a bullet if you’re honest and upfront about it.

Lisa Lewis Miller  36:39  

I think that that radical candor approach is a beautiful one. Sarah, I feel like you’ve shared so many wonderful tips. Is there one parting piece of advice or one mantra that a career change job searcher should keep in mind as they’re going about their approach?

Sarah Baker Andrus  37:02  

Hmm. You know, I really do feel that the question of do I want to work here is the question that we should be repeating in our mind over and over again. And if we answer that question, honestly, then the rejections will feel a lot less harsh. And rejection is an inevitable part of this process. Job Hunters are essentially volunteering for rejection, and volunteering for criticism, and why not lead with what we really want. And keep that foremost in our mind. And I also think it’s important to check back on that when we do get the offer. So we don’t get seduced into something that really isn’t going to meet our needs.

Lisa Lewis Miller  37:55  

Not getting seduced by something that looks shiny and sexy on the outside, but that certain part of you knows is gonna be a train wreck. Yes. That is the name of the game on moving towards satisfying, soulful, fulfilling and sustainable career opportunities. Indeed. Well, Sarah, you have just been sharing so much brilliance on this interview today. For someone who’s listening who wants to learn more about your wisdom and your your expertise, where can they go?

Sarah Baker Andrus  38:27  

Sure. Andruscareers.com

Lisa Lewis Miller  38:36  

Beautiful. Well, Sara, thank you for taking the time out of your day to give us some nuggets of wisdom and some pearls to think about with any steps you might be ready to take into your own job search.

Sarah Baker Andrus  38:51  

Thank you so much. It was a wonderful conversation.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:01  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and words to help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity: Finally Find the Work That Fits Your Values and Lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.