127: Don’t Stay In Your Lane with Cynthia Pong

Leadership and career advancement for women – a topic that does not get enough attention. These are topics where there are so many resources out there in the universe. But they all come from what I lovingly call the pale, stale male perspective. While it can be billed as tried and true to feel relevant, helpful, or equity and justice centric, so many miss the mark.

So the conversation we are having on the Career Clarity Show is about what’s changed, what’s different, and how to think about leadership and career progression and development through the lens of the uniqueness of not necessarily falling into the pale, stale male category. Our expert guest is Cynthia Pong, award winning career strategist, speaker and author of Don’t Stay In Your Lane.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Embrace Change
• Youtube: Embrace Change
• Instagram: @embracechangenyc
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04   

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04    

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Lisa Miller. And I am delighted as always that you are with us on the podcast today. For today’s episode of the podcast, we are talking about a topic that does not get enough attention. And it is leadership and career advancement. But it’s particularly for women. And it’s particularly for women of color. These are topics where there are so many resources out there in the universe. But they all come from what I lovingly call the pale, stale male perspective, the number of these guides on how to be a leader and how to get to the C suite that are written by old white dudes in their 70s who are coming from a perspective of what worked when they started their careers 3040 years ago, in the workforce, when you might not have had a computer when the internet might not have been a thing, when so many of the social justice and equal rights pieces of legislation that we know and love today didn’t even exist, sometimes makes it hard for that kind of advice. While it can be billed as tried and true, to feel relevant, helpful, or equity and justice centric. So the conversation we are going to have today is about what’s changed what’s different, and how to think about leadership and career progression and development through the lens of the uniqueness of not necessarily falling into the pale, stale male category. Our expert guest to talk about this today is Cynthia Cynthia Pon JD is an award winning career strategist, speaker and author of don’t stay in your lane, the career change guide for women of color. And NYU train lawyer turned career coach, she’s on a mission to get women of color the money, power and respect they deserve. In 2021, Cynthia created and launched the embrace change leadership accelerator for women of color, which raised 134% of its funding goal through one month of grant funding. She’s been featured in NPR having to post CNBC and more and as a LinkedIn top voice for job search and career. Cynthia like myself is a proud introvert, unlike myself as a classic middle child, and an unapologetic Rottweiler and booziest. Cynthia, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Cynthia Pong  3:08  

Thank you so much, Lisa, I’m really, really excited to be here.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:13  

Well, I am delighted that you said yes. And came on the podcast. And for listeners who are unfamiliar with you and your story. Can you share a bit about what your career and your career change have looked like so far, and what got you passionate about leadership and career development for women of color?

Cynthia Pong  3:32  

Absolutely. So my career paths been quite nonlinear, and very organic. So sometimes people look from the outside, and they think I had this all engineered out, or it was all planned out ahead of time, and absolutely is quite the opposite. So my training is as a lawyer, I was a public defender for six years in the Bronx in New York. And that was my dream job for the longest like that was what I was working towards through my education and everything. But because I earned out of that job, you know, starting about three years, and I started to experience some deep burnout. I had to I basically stepped away from that workup after about six years. And then I had that moment that I’m sure a lot of us have had were kind of like, well, I don’t want to do that anymore. I have no idea what I do want to do. And I had to do a lot of soul searching basically and come up with some type of plan for moving forward. And I got it into my head that I wanted to start my own business and work for myself. So I started my LLC I started version 1.0 of my business and then that quickly failed. And I had to iterate my business a couple times. And so it wasn’t until maybe like the third or fourth try that I landed on career coaching. But I don’t even think I was thinking of it as career coaching. I was simply thinking of it as coaching and then That was a big piece that just sort of fell right into place. And it, it did sort of click. For me, as cliche as it sounds, and from there, I just really niched my, my business, I got very specific about what I do and who I work with. And for me, that’s really, okay.

Lisa Lewis Miller  5:19  

Well, I feel like I have to back up, what was the 1.0 of the business? How can we learn about the ups and downs there because so many people have desires and hopes and dreams towards entrepreneurship. And one of the biggest things that comes up is the fear of failure, the fear of, if I try this, and it doesn’t work out, so to know that you are crushing it as an entrepreneur, but that this was not exactly the very first iteration of your dream and your idea. It’s super intriguing. So talk to me more about

Cynthia Pong  5:47  

version 1.00. My gosh, I love to talk about my failures. And my missteps, which I frankly do a lot everywhere, all the time on social podcast, and in my book, because I like to be very transparent, to show people that things are not this perfect veneer that a lot of times we see. And for women of color, especially we put so much pressure on ourselves, because we are socialized a certain way. We have external pressures, too. So I like to try to do my best to help push back against that by being really honest about the things that went wrong, you know, and things are still going wrong, you know, like, I’m still experimenting a lot in my business, but I just have a much more of a comfort level with it. And like higher thresholds for it than I used to. But to answer your question 1.0, my business was to do nonprofit consulting for social justice organizations and other progressive small community based organizations. And it failed. Um, you know, quite, I don’t know, it was a big failure. So I’m trying to say because I had, no, although I have worked with a lot of nonprofits and community based organizations, like in different volunteer capacities over my career, like when I counted them up, there was like, 20 or 20, some. So I was like, This is what I’m passionate about, like, this is part of what drove me to burnout. I’m seeing all the same patterns across, you know, industry within nonprofit, you know, I feel like people should be able to fix this thing, quote, unquote, right? It was very naive, I had a lot of hubris there. So I was like, let me let me go into business for myself as a consultant to to work with these nonprofit works, and help them be better to the shaft be better clients, streamline be efficient, all this stuff. And yeah, it really didn’t work I tried it for, for anyone who’s curious, I gave it like, four to six months. And I should also say, uh, during this time, I was like, working a part time job at a farmers market and stuff and I had savings from my job from before. And I like when I left, I cashed out all my vacations. So that was like, another month of pay. So I had, I had planned, you know, for some financial runway, which I always recommend to do, at least a little bit. But, uh, yeah, I there four to six months, it was so hard to get work visa. I mean, I don’t know if you experienced this in your entrepreneurial journey, but I’ve way underestimated how much work it would be to get work. Like I’m used to working hard. But I didn’t understand that this was a whole new can of worms that I had to do as a business owner. So I worked so hard, I basically ended up having to essentially like big for this one provato project. I did it, it was, you know, it went fine. But like, in the end, I could look back and see how there was just so many problems with how that went down. Like I had no boundaries. But the institutional client, like was just over delivered, it was too much. But yeah, after about four to six months, I was like, I got a call this this is not is not viable.

Lisa Lewis Miller  9:03  

Well, Cynthia, you know, what’s funny is I too, also started a different business when I was curious, entrepreneurs, you’re curious, shall we say? Yeah, mine was also I had been doing communications consulting work. And I was feeling really unhappy. And I couldn’t put my finger on why, right? So this is before at least it created like the four pillars methodology and could have done a self diagnosis on what was going wrong. But I thought, you know, I wonder if it’s because I want to be working on more purpose driven clients. So I thought, I’m going to start a communications consulting firm, working with nonprofits, to help support them because that’ll feel really soulful and aligned and they need the support and there’s no way that they’ll ever pay the prices that my current job was, you know, billing out to our clients. So, I went through a really similar thing on my own entrepreneurial journey and found the exact same thing that it took Goodness, probably 15 to 20 hours of work to generate one hour of paid work at the end. So yeah, about risk management and financial runway is a hugely important strategy for getting started, especially if anybody listening is entrepreneurially curious yourself. Yeah.

Cynthia Pong  10:19  

I know. And like, you know, there, to some extent, I feel like there’s, it’s hard to, it’s hard to avoid that completely, especially at the beginning, because you kind of just have to embrace the fact that it’s gonna be a lot, a lot of non billable hours, like hours in which nobody’s actually paying you to do like the thing that you’re trying to do. All the business development, all the pitching all the sales and marketing, to get those first couple of clients, you know, but then, but then once you find sort of the right combination of things, you’ve learned how to do things kind of in the right way that works for you, then it feels like it just snowballs.

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:58  

We’ll talk to me about business idea number two, and what was that help you to land on idea number three of supporting women of color in crushing it in their careers?

Cynthia Pong  11:07  

Yes. So business idea number two, was mindfulness training. So another pretty big pivot, you know, from being a public defender, I’m representing clients accused of crimes and then to like working with nonprofits and in consulting capacity, and then doing mindfulness training, training, for at this point, I learned one lesson, which was like, I’m not gonna let myself to nonprofit work. So I was like, mindfulness training for professionals. It was so broad, it was terrible. It was like, so broad, so unhinged. But the reason I landed on that was I was working with my former therapist who I adore, and like, I write about so much in the book, like, she’s all over it. But she helped me figure out she’s also an executive coach, helped me figure out that that was one thing that I had in my own journey that I could teach to others. And so as part of my attempts to like, manage my stress and stave off burnout in my public defender job, she she did sort of, like, teach me about introduced me to and then like, supported my own mindfulness practice. So the idea was to do why don’t you go and teach a continuing legal education training to lawyers about something, and then the only something that I could stomach was mindfulness. So I tried it out, and that particular webinar or whatever, but was unpaid. But there was like, 2000 views of that thing. And so I was like, okay, so there is money here, because lawyers are paying like $60, a pop or whatever to do that training. Like the organization that I did the webinar for was charging $60 a pop, I saw zero of that money. However, I got the data that was like, Oh, is this something I can do, and this is something that people will pay for. So I was like, Alright, let me pivot again. And I created a whole business around that. But ultimately, what drove me to the coaching was, I missed working with people one on one, like, you know, we’re introverts, like I and it’s not to say we can’t do like public speaking, we can’t do anything. It’s not like that at all. It’s really just a preference of how we like to be right. But I missed working with people individually on creating like deep positive change that they wanted for themselves, in a way where I could call the shots like, I could work with only a few clients, if I wanted, I could choose who I want to work with that type of thing. And that’s what led me to the coaching.

Lisa Lewis Miller  13:42  

So talk to me about this coaching, particularly for women of color. Most of the people who listen to the Career Clarity Show are women and any of the dudes who are with us more power to you. So glad you’re here. But most of the people who tuned into the Career Clarity Show are thinking about leadership and career advancement through the perspective of gender identity and expression. But it sounds like in the work that you do you see a real need and a real lens and a real differentiator around the intersectionality of making sure that race and ethnicity are a part of that conversation. So what was it that made this really stand out to you as something that was important and different and meeting a really specific and precise point of view?

Cynthia Pong  14:35  

Yeah, so again, that was very organic. So I started my coaching work as another experiment. I literally just put out a message on Facebook that was like, I’m considering taking on some individual coaching clients. Here’s a very bare bones signup form for a session is free to sign up here. And this was like, a cusp of 2016 2017. I want to say, so it was it was pretty early days, and Certainly nobody back then was like I do career coaching and strategy for people of color or for women of color was like just not a thing. But I put it out there, I just wanted to test the waters and see. And then I noticed we felt like even two, three months in it was like, well, who is contacting me for this? And who do I enjoy working with the most? And who am I getting the most results for? So through really these three questions, the it was clear, it was very clear to me I had a lot of clarity around the fact that it was women of color. And it made sense, right? Like, I’m alone color makes sense that they would seek me out that they would trust me because I understand what it is like. Not that we’re a monolith, obviously, but like, the intersection of race and gender, like I get what that is like. So I was like, okay, there’s really something here because these are the folks that are seeking me out. This is one light where you want the most like, why not just go with it. So I niche down really early to just be like, I’m out here, I made up a title for myself, I was like feminist career coach for women of color. Now I think it’s like feminists, career strategist for women of color. And I just fully embrace it. And it really paid off, I have to say,

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:18  

well, that’s amazing. And I want to dive more deeply into that. And what that means. I was on a, a LinkedIn live a couple months ago, with a couple individuals, and one of these individuals. But sort of point blank refuse to believe that microaggressions or discrimination actually exist in the workplace? Oh, yeah. And I was kind of horrified that I was explaining to somebody all of these different examples of what that can look like, and why it’s not necessarily just a, an honest mistake, you know, as so many people are tempted to write things off. So for anybody who isn’t sure that they’ve seen an example of what kinds of unique challenge other pressures were faced by individuals of color as specifically women of color, what are some of the things that you have seen in your own experience or with clients? Not again, not to speak as a monolith, but some of the different types of things that, that people who have different skin color privilege may not necessarily see your experience?

Cynthia Pong  17:29  

Yeah, so give you a couple examples. So one, microaggression, for black women, let’s say in the workplace is like, Oh, you’re so articulate, you know, or, oh, you’re not like the rest of them. Stuff like that, where the person saying it may actually believe that they’re giving the recipient a compliment. But that is not a compliment. And in fact, is quite harmful, and perpetuates a lot of stereotype biases that, you know, each those of us from, you know, different marginalized communities face and have faced for Asian American women, it could be like, Oh, your English is so good. You know, I’m, like, thinking that we’re forever foreigners. I had definitely more than once confused for the Chinese Language Interpreter when I was in court, instead of being like the lawyer, you know, whereas like, you know, for Latina woman, and maybe something like, Oh, you’re so hard working, you know, because there is a stereotype of like, Latin x folks being quote, unquote, lazy. So there’s, there’s a lot of examples. And, frankly, the, the racism, denial, and like microaggression denial that you were talking about LinkedIn is, is really quite rampant on the internet. I mean, just last week, I had a post about bringing up an intersectional lens on a study that LinkedIn had done about women and men. And so it just looked at the gender aspect and was like, Oh, well, you know, I wonder what this looks like, when you put on an intersectional lens and like for black women and Latinx women, these added considerations, right? And there was numerous comments in the, in the comments that were just like, of course, we have to make this about race and gender like this has nothing to do with that. And like just really taking it, you know, to kind of an extreme, which is frankly, just down to me, I see that as a symptom for sure of like white fragility to not be able to understand that I was merely adding to the conversation. I wasn’t like denying anything else, you know, but there’s this with with white folks and, you know, sometimes white women as well there’s this phenomenon of opportunity hoarding. So like I don’t want to cede any space to you? Because I feel like that would be less for me. There is a lot of this with power with money with, you know, like airtime talking on, there’s a lot of that that happens in the workplace. And that’s something that women of color face very specifically. And that’s again, why, like, the niche that I happen to choose a specialty area is, like so needed and why they’re not like a number of people who, who do this type of specialty.

Lisa Lewis Miller  20:33  

Yeah, it’s it’s such a shame that you only think about, like the privilege pecking order. If you Yeah, that, yeah, that because women who identify as white or who are white passing, tend to have that racial layer of access to, you know, the old guard privilege and power. But a symptom, and a consequence of that so often is trying to then push themselves above, right, other women or folks with other identities that have been historically excuse excluded or marginalized.

Cynthia Pong  21:12  

Right. Yeah, and I also want to point out that sometimes it can feel as if it is a hierarchy, and, and also that, which we’re talking about just now like this, this response to, like, feel like you know, you got to push yourself above others or whatnot. Like, that’s also like a trauma response to the system of oppression that we all live within, you know, and it’s, we’ve all internalized it, you know, racism is an area that we’ve read, like Alicia Garza says, but I want to say this, and it’s also a reminder to myself, that it’s not like a hierarchy. And that intersectionality is, it’s not like additive. It’s not like, Oh, you have this one identity plus this other identity plus a third identity, and definitely who are like more oppressed than someone who has, like only two or something, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s not that and I think that if we keep thinking about it that way, it really only reinforces the power structures that are essentially dividing, conquering, and still feed like a few at the top, while the rest of us really just literally scramble for scraps at the bottom. So that’s one complicating factor I’ll, I’ll throw in there. Sure. Well,

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:31  

and what do you think is more helpful mental model for thinking about different layers and different types of privilege? And how we can create a more even equitable, inclusive and just kind of a space?

Cynthia Pong  22:46  

That’s a great question, I think. One is to just catch yourself, if you are feeling like you’re, you’re adding up somebody who’s like identities like, oh, okay, you know, I’m a person of color, and presents as a woman, and queer and, you know, disabled, like, if you’re, if you feel like, Oh, hey, this person is like, all these things, like, they’re a part of their cumulative identity. And therefore, they like, have necessarily, like, if you’re thinking about them only in those ways, it’s quite reductive to like, it in a way like takes away from like them as a human being that has these complexities as part of them. But one way I would think about it as like, Okay, how can I make space for everybody? You know, like, how can everyone be? I’m not even gonna say equally, but like, how can everyone have access to whatever it is, this particular meeting this level of job position, like, this kind of pay? Like, how can everybody have access and then like, for me, because I do have a very strong equity lens, I think about I do think about reparations, and things like that. So as someone who has white skin privilege, and who has like a lot of class in education privilege, and you know, as an East Asian American, like, I have privilege that’s different from like Southeast Asian Americans. I think a lot about how I can use the power I do have to offer more and create more for those who don’t have that level of institutional status. If you know, I mean, so can you think about it, I try to think about it as like generative, like how can I make more space, create more opportunities? And I mean, if you want to talk about, like, concrete ways to do that, like we also can, I know it’s a little abstract.

Lisa Lewis Miller  24:47  

Well, I think it’s, it’s helpful to remind folks, myself included, not to be reductive and thinking about, you know, layers of identity. In lieu of or in place of the human, who is in front of you, for sure. And I think that the lens of thinking about access, just how do we make this accessible? How do we make this possible? How do we remove barriers? Feels like a really worthy way to think about that as well.

Cynthia Pong  25:17  

Yeah, I think the last thing I’ll add to that is like, with the caveat to remember the privilege and power that you do have, because I think sometimes people can do exactly what you just said, but in a way that that then erases or dismisses or does not acknowledge the fact that there are power dynamics, you know, um, so I think there’s a way to do both. But, you know, there’s a lot of learning for all of us in this space. And I think like being willing to own up to when you do make mistakes, and like, make real apologies also, like, make amends, find our center, like restorative justice, transformative justice thing, but like, what do you need to do to make something right, when you have done something wrong, like we all are always making mistakes, you know, so like, rather than trying to tiptoe around areas around race and identity, just like, you know, learn how to talk about things, you know, get get help, if you need to pay people to, like, give you the knowledge that you need, or want, read about it on your own, you know, all these things are also out there for us all. Awesome, but

Lisa Lewis Miller  26:35  

and I appreciate hearing that, and the emotional labor of someone teaching this to a white woman. So I appreciate that and acknowledge the emotional labor burden there. And I’m curious when you are talking to not people like me, when you’re talking to your clients, what are some of the biggest topics that tend to come up as as themes? When you’re thinking about leadership and career empowerment decisions?

Cynthia Pong  27:06  

Yes, so um, one thing that comes up a lot is sort of like fear or trepidation around speaking up for themselves in the workplace, like not wanting to advocate for oneself, because they know that there’s a higher risk of blowback, and retaliation or punishment. And then for people who are either men or people who are white. Um, so there’s like it, and you just mentioned emotional labor, but think about, like, how much labor is involved in, for example, like, thinking about should I write something in a particular email, like, you can’t just like say what you want to say, because you know, it’s going to be taken a certain way, because of how we look, for example, so like, like minds who are black women, like they’re constantly, constantly like, afraid of being labeled as the angry black woman, you know, because that frequently happens. Um, so a lot of times, they err on the side of being more obsequious and like timid and like, not wanting to like speak up for themselves or for colleagues because of not wanting to have to deal with frankly, having to have the burden of that label. So that’s, that’s one thing that comes up a lot just like feeling confident and knowing how to assert oneself in the in the workplace. Another one I would say, is, sir, just hitting all types of ceilings. And so that might be around pay, it might be around title. It might be sometimes it’s like, not so much a ceiling as like, you know, you can’t break into a certain like department or like vertical of work, sometimes it’s like that, too. So just being boxed in, at all types of levels. Like, you know, there’s a much bigger disparity for Asian American women, and certainly, indigenous women, and also black and Latinx. Women, when it comes to what proportion is represented at like the individual contributor level versus middle management versus executive. So at the executive level, it’s like 02 percent, quite low. For a white woman I believe it’s for and I think for white men, it’s like six, but you can imagine so at every level, though, the ratio is is different. There’s a lot more individual contributors, people at the bottom of the org, who are women of color. So this concept of like, vertical segregation, is something that frankly, my clients run up against every day.

Lisa Lewis Miller  29:53  

How do you support somebody with that because it feels like it’s such a systemic level issue. For It’s such an issue that has to do with, like the the old way of doing things, right? Like, boys club, like the thing that I have been codified as corporate america like, this is what we do. We’re professionals that then come down and end up oppressing the the culture and the voices of people who don’t look like the leaders who created those rules. Yeah, how do you? How do you encourage and empower individuals knowing that they’re working within systems that oppress?

Cynthia Pong  30:32  

Yeah, so, you know, really, we all are, we all are working within systems that oppress, but one thing I always try to anchor my clients back to, is, this framework that I call circles of control, you may have heard of, I call it something else, I just call it that. But in the concentric circles of control, like the inner circle is like, what we as individuals control, and it’s really what we control in terms of like our actions, our decisions, and to some extent, like our thoughts, you know, beyond that, there’s like another band within like, the next level of circle, and that’s like, things that you can influence. So like, you can try to influence your supervisor to give you that promotion in the race, but at the end of the day, you don’t decide if you get that. So that lands squarely within as I use all makes all the shapes squarely within the second and you know, band of the circle. And then beyond that is like just stuff that we really cannot control, like systemic racism, and climate change, capitalism, you know, stuff like that. So I try to make sure that my clients have their, that their concept of what lies within each of the circles is actually accurate to reality. Because a lot of times they think, like, Oh, if only I asked this way, I’ve only like, tried this harder. Like, if I did that, if I hadn’t done this, you know, then x outcome would have been different. But, you know, like, they have to remember that actually, all it was within their control was to do their best, you know, and like, do their due diligence, like, that’s the stuff I really help them with that type of strategizing, the action planning all of that. But the results like they cannot judge themselves based on the result because too often it’s nothing to do with them with, you know, like, it really doesn’t, and so not over personalizing stuff, too, is so liberating, I think for a lot of my clients. Because otherwise it’s it’s so much to just carry with you. I don’t want to drag you out over time.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:45  

say more about that. I haven’t heard the term over personalizing, used in this way. And I’m very into it.

Cynthia Pong  32:52  

Yeah, I think sometimes, because obviously we’re all like the star of the movie of our lives. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes it’s hard to remember that. Some people are just going to be how they’re going to be and no level of us trying to like outmaneuver, or like shy situations necessarily going to cause a different result. Like if you work for, like, white man who’s like the CEO, like found in this place or whatever has always done things a certain way for the past 40 years. Like you were probably deluding yourself to think that like you single handedly are going to be able to change that person’s mind. Like you probably are not, like I’m not saying don’t try. Um, it’s kind of a weird paradoxical like, feels like a contradiction thing. He said, but it’s like, it’s like try and also you have to be able to release expectation that, that it’s like a formula you put in two plus two and it’s gonna come up as four it’s not balanced. So that I’ve talked about it too in like my social media like that. I’m sure I’ve done Instagram and LinkedIn posts about it, too, is like to focus on performance goals, quote, unquote. So I don’t know You seem like an athletic person. Are you a black person?

Lisa Lewis Miller  34:06  

Um, I would like to be an athletic person one day, yeah, let’s go with that. aspirationally athletic.

Cynthia Pong  34:13  

Okay, well, you exude that very well to whatever for whatever that’s worth. But for me what I tell my clients to focus on their performance goals, which really just means like, for example, if you’re like networking to find a new job to focus on your own target goal, like weekly goal for like, I want to reach out to five people a week. And then five people next week, five people, we know that it’s not I want to set up 10 phone calls for the next week or the next two weeks because you actually don’t control that all you control is your output. When people even get back to you. It like don’t take that personally because probably, probably they’re just busy and like overwhelmed or like maybe maybe they did see your message and they purpose. didn’t respond. But I’m gonna guess more than half of the time, it has absolutely nothing to do with you as a person. So don’t take that on, you know, focus on getting your next five a week out. And that’s all you’re responsible for, like you have enough on your plate. I’m very sure.

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:19  

Yeah, I like that idea of just focusing on the out comes that you have 100% control over. Did you put send on that networking message? Yes or no? Right? Like, at some level, you want to keep track of like, Okay, how many messages there’s too many messages to send without hearing back, right? Because you do want to have some sort of quality filter on of like, maybe there are things I need to change within the scope of how I’m doing the outreach. Yeah. And I think that not putting the pressure on yourself to be beholden for magically controlling somebody else’s mind and their schedule, and they’re willing to write back the emails to get an out. Yeah, is very mentally healthy.

Cynthia Pong  36:00  

Yes. 100%. It doesn’t mean you don’t then look at the data. A lot of times, I think, with women of color, and maybe also women in general, sometimes we like one of our one a common coping strategy I see. But also like, for men, I guess it’s like, avoidance, right? Like, you don’t want to look at certain things, I feel it for myself. But like you do have to, and sometimes that’s why it is helpful to work with an external accountability partner who can like, sort of, like be with you, as you like, look at those numbers and analyze like, okay, you sent out 100, you didn’t hear back from a single one. Maybe there’s another problem. You know?

Lisa Lewis Miller  36:39  

Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And it, I really appreciate you bringing up the topic of avoidance, because I think that, for so many of us, no matter what your identity is, when you are in the process of navigating a career, shift, whatever that looks like, you’re going for a promotion, you’re trying to get a different job within your organization, you’re trying to flip the table on your life and go back to grad school and do a complete shift. One of the things that comes up is a lot of anxiety, fear, and worry and wonder. And often, we choose behaviors as coping mechanisms that don’t further our pursuit of our goal. And one of those totally being avoidance, like, well, if I keep doing the work, but I’m not going to look at the outcomes because it stresses me out. It makes me feel more anxious. Yeah, then you might just be putting in tons of effort for nothing. Right? It’s, it feels like it’s a soothing mechanism or a coping mechanism because you’re taking action. But when it’s ultimately ending up being a self defeating or self sabotaging. Yeah, it’s an interesting level of, of nuance that getting some external accountability and perspective, can be really helpful in unearthing

Cynthia Pong  38:01  

Yeah, I mean, at some point if you like think about I don’t know why my mind keeps going back to like the sport and athlete thing but like, Do you know any high performing athlete who doesn’t have a coach or like somebody who’s helping them and I’m a big fan, frankly of like, multiple systems of support so I love when like, clients also are actively working with their therapist because like, you know, nothing I provide is going to be anything like that psychological support. And like they’re also like doing other stuff that is providing them other pillars of support because all this stuff is a lot but yeah, we’re very uncomfortable with the unknown as like a society it seems like and so there’s frankly, a lot of anxiety around it and it’s not efficient to to really kind of like keep your head in the sand about any number of these things. So like if you do have a specific goal, and you’re and you you like feel strongly about it, and you’re stressed out about getting to there you know, there’s tons of There are tons of resources and this is also why like why I felt compelled to write my book because I knew I couldn’t work with every single person who is going through a career change as a woman of color and is finding like no intersectional help that speaks to them and that is stuff that they can actually apply without, you know, massive fear of retribution in the workplace and like, you know, I talk in my book also walk them through like about money, you know, because like career books like don’t tend to talk about those things and yet we live within capitalism and you need money and so like, how is someone supposed to go from one job to another if they don’t have like, any recognition about like, what the financial situation is like, you know, I’m not a fan of just telling everyone to like take on big financial risks and for again, for women of color like more frequently, they Supporting not only their own like family unit, but like multiple family units, like generations above Gerrish blow generations inside. So it’s a big, it’s a big deal. And that’s why, like, she’s a big fan of support to try and get people support, however, receive

Lisa Lewis Miller  40:17  

a love that. And Cynthia, I’m so grateful that you’re bringing up the money piece of it, because one of the layers of privilege that is oftentimes pretty highly correlated with racial or ethnic identity. Gosh, I need more caffeine over here. It’s access to generational wealth. Oh, yeah. Right, like you have belonged to identities that were in power, then the ability to generate, create, generate, and then pass down wealth over time to give your progeny options and choices and privileges. Changes. changes, the game changes the playing field.

Cynthia Pong  41:04  

Yeah, 1,000%, it’s not only generational wealth, in terms of money in dollars, it’s also generational knowledge, because that’s also power, money is power, knowledge is power. And there’s huge disparities in that in communities of color. And, you know, because there are forces at play that want to keep status quo, how they are and keep widening those gaps, frankly, and not closing the gaps. And I think that’s why, I mean, part of the drivers, I think of like, our work is to try to close some of these gaps. But there’s huge forces and historical like inertia, keeping them in place, for sure. Um, and yeah, being able to lean back and no, like, oh, like, if this fails, like, it’s okay, I have, like, you know, a beggar cow that like a trust fund, or like, you know, my parents are like stocks and my name, like, all that type of thing. Where the knowledge equivalent are connections and stuff is like the network or like, Oh, my dad can introduce me to so and so. And there’s gonna give me an internship, and then they’ll give me a job. And then like, you know, I’ll be in the room, and we’ll be playing golf and all that stuff. There’s a lot of strata involved, where like, I mean, I think about that all the time. Like, in New York, there’s people who live in this same city that I will never, probably ever cross paths with, because they’re living on like, a totally different level. You know,

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:34  

it’s, it’s a shame. And it’s our current reality. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be the reality forever, especially people like you and I are able to help and support people the way that we want to.

Cynthia Pong  42:46  

Yeah, and also, I think holds people in power and with power accountable. Whenever we can help we can and sometimes that means like, taking some personal sacrifice, or like putting yourself on the line to like, say something. Giving space to advocate for women of color color to get a promotion. When like you like instead of seeing them as like a threat to you, you know, to actually support them. And sponsor advocate for them to get it instead, like there’s so many ways that we can actually chip away daily and do things that are really meaningful, you know, on an individual level, and still grappling the fact that we live within a system of oppression. Dat I love that. And

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:31  

if anybody’s listening to this, and that resonates with you, and you want to go deeper into that topic, in particular, there’s an N legacy episode of the Career Clarity Show that I’ll link to in the show notes with Nuria broughtest. Nuria with an n, where we talk about this idea of being an uplift, like being a draft of wind under somebody else’s wings, and how to do that really effectively. So check out the show notes for a link to the episode with Mariah if that really resonates with you. And, Cynthia, back to you. To bring us into a close for today. What’s one piece of encouragement or one core belief that you wish you could impart into every woman of color who is out there, trying to crush it in corporate America?

Cynthia Pong  44:24  

You are enough. Like truly again, my therapist said that to me years ago, and it took me a long time to internalize it. And I have since tried to share that with a lot of my clients and in social media and stuff. And it sounds trite, and it’s like, you know, like feels like such a flippant like little thing, but also it’s very powerful three words. And so if you are questioning self doubt, struggling with the imposter syndrome being like, Can I really do this? Do I really belong in the room? Like, am I here because Have some quarter or whatever, no, you are enough. You deserve it. And we need you there. Frankly.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:09  

I love that that’s a good Mic drop moment for us. So for someone who’s been listening to our conversation and who has been loving what you were sharing and wants to hear more about you and your work and your book, where can they connect?

Cynthia Pong  45:25  

Yeah, so everything can be found at my website, which is embrace change that NYC embrace change dot NYC, you can find out much more about my book there. Don’t stay in your lane. It’s traveling more like a self guided course to take you from literally A to Z in a career change if anyone is interested in that supports you all along the way. All my socials are linked there too. I’m most active on Instagram and LinkedIn. Instagram handles, embrace change NYC and my LinkedIn easiest ways to search my name Cynthia bomb, but also my Twitter, my YouTube are linked to my web page. So look out for that. And if you want missives from me in your inbox, there’s a newsletter. Sign up on my website is called the trajectory so you can get on that I’ll send you lots of freebies. And yeah, reach out. I’m here and we’d love to hear from

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:23  

folks. Amazing. Well, Cynthia, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show and dropping a lot of knowledge bombs.

Cynthia Pong  46:32  

Thank you so much, Lisa. It’s been so fun, and I wish we could do it all day.

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:43  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally find the work that fits your values and lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.