Episode 104: Figuring Out What’s Next with Dr. Dawn Graham

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

When you’ve been in this world of career discernment, career change, career pathing, there are certain people whose names just come up. And today’s guest is one of them – Dr. Dawn Graham. Dr. Dawn is a career switch coach, TEDx speaker, LinkedIn learning instructor and host of the popular call in show Dr. Dawn on careers on Sirius XM Radio.

I’m excited to connect with Dr. Dawn to share about strategies for how to think about what’s next, how to be resilient with change, how to see what’s coming in the future of work. This episode is for you if you have had any curiosity about trends and themes in the labor market and what is coming down the pipeline and what you should be expecting to meet the challenges of the future of work.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Dr. Dawn on Careers
• LinkedIn: Dr. Dawn Graham
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career.

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:31  

Welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Lisa Miller. And I’m delighted as always to have you with us today. And on today’s episode of the podcast, I am tickled to bring this guest and this message to you today because I will not lie. I had a little bit of a fan girl moment when this guest said yes to come on the podcast. Because when you’ve been in this world of career careers, and discern mid career change career pathing there are certain people whose names just come up. And today’s guest is one of them. So I am so excited to bring on a fellow career change expert to share about strategies for how to think about what’s next, how to be resilient with change, how to see what’s coming in the future of work. So today’s episode is going to be for you if you have had any curiosity about trends and themes in the labor market and what is coming down the pipeline and what you should be expecting to meet the challenges of the future of work, and to future proof yourself to make sure that you can be resilient to make sure that you can meet the changes ahead and not feel like you are getting caught unaware. Today’s episode of the podcast is also going to be for you. If you have been thinking about career change and making a switch. And you are totally over the sound of my voice and you want to hear somebody else a brilliant riff on what’s possible, what to think about and how to set yourself up for success. So if you have been at all tiptoeing around the idea of making a transition or a change, and you’re ready to feel even more courageous and even more equipped to make that happen, this episode, episode of the podcast is definitely going to be for you. Now, let me tell you about the background and the bio of our guest today. Dr. Dawn Graham.

Lisa Lewis Miller  2:25  

Dr. Dawn Graham is a career switch coach TEDx speaker, LinkedIn learning instructor and host of the popular call in show Dr. Don on careers on Sirius XM Radio. She’s a regular contributor to forbes.com under their leadership channel, and the career director for the Executive MBA program at the Wharton School, the University of Pennsylvania. Her latest book switchers how smart professionals change careers and sees success combines your experience as a career coach, licensed psychologist and former corporate recruiter to give career switchers, the strategies to break through obstacles and lambda the jobs they want. Dr. Dawn, welcome to the Career Clarity Show. 

Dr. Dawn Graham  3:06  

I’m so excited to be here. Lisa, thank you for that very kind introduction. I appreciate that. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:12  

Well, you know what, I think that in this world of career experts and career coaches, there are so many people out there who focus on different slices, like there are people who are brilliant leadership coaches, brilliant executive coaches, brilliant coaches for rising managers, and this space of helping people to figure out what’s next. And to answer the question of if not this, then what is one where there are only kind of a select few of us who are really digging deep and doing that part of the work? So I feel so excited to get to have you on. And I’m curious as a starting point for our conversation. What, what got you interested, what made you start to really lean into this career switch world as an area that you wanted to study and focus on? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  3:58  

Yeah, well, it actually started about two decades ago when I got laid off. And that might surprise some people but I was with Arthur Andersen at the time. And there’s there’s a whole movie on what happened with Arthur Andersen and Enron. But when you work in a pretty stable company, a global company, a company that’s been around 100 years and you’re doing great, your performance reviews indicate that you’re on track for for a positive future there. It’s really, really shocking when that rug gets pulled out from under you. And I don’t think anybody expected it. But that was the first time in my career that I realized that security only comes from within, and that it’s not enough to do great work. It’s not enough to to show up at your company every day and create this plan around one company. And it was a hard lesson. But it was a great lesson because although it was pretty traumatic at the time, and I know a lot of people who’ve been in the business world who’ve experience playoffs, whether you see it coming or not, it’s always a very traumatic ordeal because we especially in the US, intertwine ourselves with our career and our identity with our career, that, you know, it’s a wake up call, and you go through a bunch of emotions. But in my case, and I think for many people to, it really helps you step back and gain some clarity around what’s important to you, what you want to see in your future and what you need to do to get there. And that’s really when I started down the path of career coaching. So it was a little bit of a traumatic start. But it turned into a great career that I love.

Lisa Lewis Miller  5:42  

I love that. One of the pieces, you know, the impetus for you doing this work was realizing that just being great at your job isn’t enough. Because I think that for so many people who are feeling dissatisfied in their current career, sometimes there can be this paradigm of, well, once I just find the right career for me, I can kick up my heels, I can rest on my laurels, I can just coast. I’ll be there for the next 20 years. And it’ll be fine and great. And I think that the reality of our world, which i think i think that the Arthur Andersen, Enron situation was really a watershed moment that has now created a lot more instability and rapid change and rapid evolution. I think that one of the biggest lessons that has come out of that is that nothing can be taken for granted and is stable and certain. And that being fabulous, without having a network or without having a sense of direction, or without having optionality can sometimes end up being a risk factor or a liability for being able to create a happy, healthy and, and stable and maybe even put stable in air quotes, career path over time. 

Dr. Dawn Graham  6:56  

It’s really true. It’s it’s, it’s like when you maybe own a house or you own a car, you feel much better once you have an insurance policy, because now you know that things are protected. And yes, things may go wrong things may be out of your control, but you have somewhat of a failsafe, and I think that’s really what I preach about careers is that you can love what you do, and you can be great at it. But it’s really important to continue to build your skills, build your brand, build your network, which creates that that’s somewhat of a safety net. So if something should happen That’s unexpected, either professionally or personally, you have, you know, already a plan in place that you can implement and land on your feet. And I think that’s going to be important for all of us now. And I think a lot of people learned that lesson during the pandemic, because all of a sudden things that we assumed were certain, became uncertain and things that that we had planned, all of a sudden, were wiped off the calendar. And so now I think this, this awakening has occurred where we realize that doesn’t matter if we’re great performers, the industry can go away doesn’t matter if, you know, we’re doing a great job in our company and on track to move forward because we’ve seen stellar performers get furloughed, just because there are no more customers. So for me, and I’m an introvert, and I know a lot of people don’t believe that. But I learned that, you know, great skills are important. And that’s true, you need a brand that that shows that you’re reliable, and you show up. But one of the things that’s incredibly critical, no matter what industry or field you’re in, is building your network. And that was a little bit scary to learn as somebody who really felt that, that I can rely on great skills. And that would be enough, but truly, it’s not in in this world that’s only getting more competitive, more global, more tech based, your network is going to be a critical part of your career trajectory, regardless of what you’re in. So I do talk about that a lot. And I know it’s a little bit of a scary topic, especially if you’re an introvert like me, but it’s something I think that creates that insurance that we all need.

Lisa Lewis Miller  9:03  

Let’s dive a little bit more deeply into that because I am a fellow introvert for anybody who’s listening. I’m an INTJ. And I’m very proud of it. And for INTJ, in particular, you’ve got the introvert layer of like, oh, gosh, I have to talk to the humans this like this is oftentimes a draining activity for me, I want to set myself up for success. And then I need TJs are sometimes known as as being like a little bit of jerks because we don’t particularly care for some of the the small talk elements of building relationship and building connection. So, Dawn, when you’re talking to somebody who also identifies as an introvert and you say exactly how you just phrase it, your network is your insurance policy, your network is your safety net. And they they start to say Oh, like Dawn Tell me any other way. Like Tell me of course that I can take it can I pay somebody how do I do this without having to build my network? What do you say to address those fears and objections? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  10:02  

Yeah, I think it’s actually scarier not to have a network in today’s world. So I think if it gets kind of what’s the lesser of the two evils, but I, honestly, I don’t think that that it needs to be about going into big rooms with lots of strangers. I think one of the biggest places that are overlooked is the people we currently know our family, our friends, our community resources. And we typically don’t talk with these individuals about our jobs and about our goals. And you know, that we’re trying to apply for a job in x company. And we kind of reserved those conversations for people on LinkedIn are people who that we feel like we need to reach out to and, and get a 15 minute phone call with but in reality, we’re all so well connected today through the internet and social media, that you may be surprised that somebody you see pretty regularly whether it’s your neighbor, or you know, in the dog park, the the fellow people you talk with, they’ve got great connections to places you want to be. And you’ve done the hard part, you’ve introduced yourself, you’ve kind of broken through the ice, you have someone a relationship. And now if they just knew your goal, if they just knew you were in a job search and targeting these specific companies, or if they just knew that you were looking to get, you know, an opportunity to write for a magazine, or whatever it is you’re looking to do, you’d be surprised at how many people would say, Hey, you know what, I’m not sure if this would help, but you should talk to my sibling, or you should talk to my spouse, they’re usually to talk to so it’s over there with the pug because they’re in an industry and it happens a lot. And we underestimate the people closest to us, because we say, oh, they’re not in our field, or they don’t really understand what we do. Or that, you know, what would they know that we don’t know, because we see them every day. But the fact is, if they don’t understand what you do, make sure they understand what you do talk about it, tell them say, Hey, you know, I know. You might know me as an IT person. But do you know what I really do, and explain it and ask them because we are missing out on our biggest cheerleaders by not talking to the people we know about our goals. And I know it feels vulnerable. Because when it comes to the job, or comes to our employment situation, it’s not something that we necessarily want to be open about. But we’re all going to be in job searches over and over and over throughout our careers. And I really, truly believe we can make this a social process where we all get around the table and talk about it and say, What’s your goal for 2021? Or what’s your goal for your career this year, and be one another’s kind of board of directors or advisors, we’d all have a lot more leads. And I think that’s one of the easiest and most fruitful ways to network that many, many people overlook.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:50  

What you just said about vulnerability, I think is the biggest challenge and the biggest tricky spot in all of this because listening to you. It’s like, oh, Dawn makes it sound so easy. I just need to open up those conversations. No problem, I’ll just talk about that. But there are a lot of internal layers of stuff of resistance, of fear of objections of whatever that can often make something as simple as having a conversation with your neighbor, where you talk about work when you’ve never talked about work before. feel really challenging. What do you say to people who who find a huge amount of resistance or fear in leaning into that vulnerability and sharing this part of themselves? That feels a little bit less? Certain, a little bit less polished, a little bit less put together? Then maybe they want to be perceived by their peers? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  13:42  

Right? Yeah. So I think I think one of the easiest things we can do is, is ask someone else first. So if you’re asking if you’re talking with your neighbor, and you’re talking about how you know, the grass is coming in great this year, why not ask and say, you know, we’ve never really talked about this, but I know you work in the city, but I don’t really know what you do. You know, what do you do and get to know them and then inevitably, the conversation will live and they’ll get to know what you do. And I would find it really hard to believe that you don’t find some commonalities, either in the industry or in people you know, or in situations you’re facing or customers you interact with. And so I think it can certainly deepen a relationship and sometimes it’s easier to ask about somebody else first, then to offer your own story. And that’s a great way to open the door. But I also tend to ask my my clients or my students, you know, let’s play this out. What happens if you don’t ask what happens if you say nothing and the truth is you get nothing. And so I said, well then your odds are significantly better if you say something so you have a choice. And you know, it’s not an easy choice and it’s not always going to work out but you have 100% chance of getting nothing if you do nothing so so it becomes one of those things when you you know do the math. It’s it’s not great math. It’s If you just keep talking yourself out of it, and so my, my personal mantra is if I’m not kind of screwing some things up or failing at some things or making some mistakes, and I’m probably not stretching myself. And in today’s world, if you’re not stretching, if you’re not learning things that are new and different, and really becoming adaptable, you’re going to start feeling that a lot in the coming years, because the world is changing so fast, faster than it’s ever changed before and even is getting behind a year or two is going to feel like like you’re at the bottom of the mountain. So I think for all of us, we need to create a situation where we’re getting outside of our comfort zones in small ways, so that we get comfortable doing that. And maybe it’ll never be fully comfortable, and definitely won’t be enjoyable. But, but if you don’t do it on your own, you’re going to be forced to and those situations are definitely definitely not comfortable.

Lisa Lewis Miller  15:59  

Yeah, I think that given the option to either have your back up against the wall, or to be able to do it on your own terms. And on your own timeline, I would guess almost every single person listening to this podcast would much prefer to feel like they’ve got more control, that they’re in the driver’s seat of their own career journey and have their own opportunities. But I love that you’re starting to talk about the future of work and the pace of innovation and change in the marketplace. Because back in 2017, the I think it’s the union of freelancers, or the Association of freelancers put out a study in 2017, that said by 2027 50% of the workforce was going to be freelance or have been freelance. And back in 2017, I think that was probably a pretty bold, boldly claim. And now that we’ve had this last year of the pandemic, and of the, the supercharged pneus of the transition of work to be more flexible, more location independent, to have more opportunities for different types of work arrangements, and to be able to collaborate with more distributed global teams. I think we’re seeing some changes we’ve known we’re coming down the pipeline for a while accelerated in some huge, huge ways, which I think make that necessity of having a great network and being willing to put yourself out there even more important today than it was even just a couple of years ago. 

Dr. Dawn Graham  17:28  

It’s so true. And that’s the exact word I would use accelerated. So we knew this was happening, people would read about it, people would hear about it, and they thought, well, I could probably post another five years, and maybe even depending on where you are in your career, I might just be able to coast for the rest of my career. But now, now, they realize they can’t, because a lot of things have changed over the past year, that likely won’t go back and will only move forward. So I think a lot of people have realized that that I always talk about three areas of reinvention, one, you constantly need to be reinventing your skills in alignment with the market. And that might mean learning completely new things or that might mean kind of modifying the skills you have to be in alignment with the new technology and the new systems that are coming out. But, but really looking at the outside market and making sure that you’re learning something new. And you’re trying something that you haven’t tried before, so that your your mind gets used to doing that. And then your brand, I think being visible as somebody who is, is bringing skills to the market that are valuable and useful, somebody who’s reliable, dependable, and who’s agile and adaptable, I mean, these things are going to be really important. as people move up in their careers as people move around in different jobs, then of course that aligns with your network and making sure that you build the network that is diverse, and you know, in diverse community of things geographically level of experience, age culture, and you know, people outside your field and outside your industry, a lot of us tend to let it get a little bit insular from time to time. And I think these are all important because what we see is that, you know, about 50% of jobs are at risk of becoming, you know, computerized or technology based, which means new jobs will be created, but other jobs will go away, we know that the number of skills we’re seeing that are needed to be successful in the workplace are increasing and there’s a lot more being added to even job descriptions around analytics and, and other areas that weren’t there a few years ago. And you know, one of my favorite statistics is that in 2014 LinkedIn did a survey and the top 10 most in demand jobs didn’t even exist five years ago and I think we’re gonna see that too. And while all this can sound a little bit scary, I think it’s it’s flip. I think it’s exciting because A lot of people don’t really resonate with the idea of doing the same thing for the rest of their lives. I mean, that’s, you know, if you’re working 30 4050 years, that’s a long time to be doing something. So I think we need to look at this as an opportunity that switchers which, you know, a few years ago, that was kind of a big thing. I think, switchers in the next five to 10 years are going to become the new normal. And that’s not even going to be a term because the regular career cycle will include having a job being successful, maybe rescaling, upscaling transitioning to a different job transitioning to a different industry, evolving in different ways. And so I think we’re gonna see people making switches, and that becoming much more common, which is exciting for, for individuals who like variety, or, you know, when something new comes out that didn’t exist last year, and you think, wow, I really want to do that, there’s going to be more openness to making those types of changes.

Lisa Lewis Miller  20:57  

I think that’s spot on. And one of the consequences of that, that’s kind of interesting, and that I think any switcher needs to take to heart is that if you are wanting to make a transition that moves between industries or job functions, the burden of proof becomes on you to show an organization or an employer, how the heck you see the relevance or the transferability of past experiences or knowledge into your new world. And I think that that feels really intimidating. For some folks have, oh, gosh, is anybody ever gonna take me seriously? How do I tell that story? How do I make the case and connect the dots? And what have you seen with the folks that you’ve been working with in terms of how to effectively put those puzzle pieces together into one cohesive narrative? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  21:47  

Right. And I think right now, it is incumbent on us as the job seeker as the professional to do a lot of this work. And it is on our shoulders to rebrand and to market ourselves in different ways. So that a hiring manager or recruiting team can see us as a fit, even if we don’t have that traditional background. And there’s a lot of good news coming out around that, which is one book I highly recommend for anyone who’s interested in the future of work is Michel weiss’s book, which came out in November, long life learning, which is where a lot of the data that I’ve been talking about comes from it, it’s, you know, companies are starting to understand the need to rescale or upskill their employees, and they’re starting to see the value of internal mobility systems, which number of companies AI and machine learning companies are coming out with ways to move people around and to see, you know, okay, you have 70% of the skills for this new job, but you need to upskill you in 30%, and then you’ll be you’ll be ready for this. So I think there’s a lot of interesting things coming out that will help the individual from an you know, from a company standpoint and organizational standpoint there right now, we’re in this transition period, where it is up to us. And hiring is still very much focused on traditional candidates. So you need to have X number of years and this and you need to have, you know, a degree in this and, and so that can be really demoralizing when you’re looking for a job online, or you’re looking to move into a different field, because you say, Nope, nope, nope, no. But a couple of things that that I think are helpful is that most people who are hired for a role only have about 60% or so of the qualification. So I would say, certainly, if you’re interested in a role, and you don’t have all the qualifications, don’t allow that to hold you back. Because you certainly can use your network to get a referral. And if you can make the case when you get in front of the hiring manager, that you’re the right person for this job, and you bring transferable skills, and you have, in the past gotten up to speed very quickly and have been successful, that’s gonna that’s going to be a big deal. But But you have to get past the applicant tracking system first, which is where that referral comes in. But but don’t get discouraged if you don’t match everything. Because in the same way, there’s not an ideal job. Yeah, there’s always something wish wouldn’t be different. There’s not an ideal candidate. There’s there’s certainly ones that that make more sense than others. But so that I think is one the other is you really have to commit to a target. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is they cast too broad of a net. So they their target is not focused. And they think, well, I’m just gonna put everything on my resume or everything on my LinkedIn. And the hiring manager is going to go through and pick and choose what’s going to make sense. And that’s not the way it works. No, no, they want you to tell them in very clear, succinct, brief points. This is this is what I bring. This is how it’s going to solve your problems. And this is how I’m going to make you look good. And you so in order to do that, well, you have to know your audience and in order to get to know your audience, you have to have a clear target. So I coach people to go more narrow in their targets, then sometimes they don’t feel comfortable doing that. But they have a lot more success because the hiring team sees you’re committed, they see that you are focused, this is not a whim, you’re not just looking for any job you’re looking to, you know, partner with a company that shares your values that that you can be a value add to that you can use your skills that so I think that is what really drives a hiring manager to make a decision, if they find somebody who’s hungry, was targeted, who’s committed to this path and has done concrete steps to get to show that they’re committed to the Pats, they’re going to be much more interested in that candidate than somebody who may have a traditional background, but you know, doesn’t really have a good reason for wanting to be with the company. And you know, is it really as focused, so that can make a big difference.

Lisa Lewis Miller  25:54  

That’s I’ve seen that same thing play out with a lot of the folks that I’ve worked with, too, there’s, there’s somebody coming to mind in particular, who wanted to get into project management. And I said, awesome, what kind of project management, because if you Bill yourself as being so broad, as a general project manager, you’re never going to be anybody’s dream candidate. And it’s the it’s the magic in the details on the specificity that comes with saying, okay, you want to do project management, you have a real passion for marketing and communications, let’s narrow you down as a like a technical development project manager, or creative project manager, and talk about how you have managed lots of different diverse teams with web developers and designers. Because all of a sudden, once you can paint a really clear picture about how your skills and capabilities translate to an employer’s needs, it becomes so much easier for you to rise to the top of the stack of hundreds and hundreds of applications, they might be looking at any given day, to be the one that they interview. And, Dawn, one other question I had for you is I love that you’re talking about this kind of revolution in the way that we’re thinking about hiring because one of the interesting things that I’m seeing in the future of work conversations right now is the skills based hiring rather than experience or qualifications based hiring. And I know that LinkedIn and Microsoft are pushing some really exciting changes in that world. And to your point about the candidates who get hired only having 60 ish percent of the qualifications on paper, I think really says that, it might be easier than you think it is, to make the case why you would be a great candidate for a position. But also that looking at transferable skills, and capabilities may make it easier to see the connection points than just thinking about yourself in terms of the specific, let’s say, industry, subject matter expertise that you might have, or the specific titles that you might have had in previous positions.

Dr. Dawn Graham  28:01  

What one of the things I think we all need to do is stop introducing ourselves by our title or by our company. And using these these words, that kind of box us into a certain area, which is something that has been traditionally the way people introduce themselves or view themselves. Because when you do that, it not only becomes hard for others to see you differently, it becomes hard for you to see yourself differently. And so I think I always tell people to think about what value you bring to the marketplace and what problems you solve for your audience and how you do that that’s unique to you, and start introducing yourself and start talking about yourself that way. Because that gives you the opportunity to view yourself more broadly. And when you view yourself more broadly, you can see more more opportunities, and a lot of people who are saying on making a career change when you really boil it down to the core skills they’re using, they’re not making that much of a change. Yes, it’s a title that’s different. It’s an industry that’s different, but but the core skills they’re using are not that different. I think that’s the way that we’re moving companies are looking at skills and putting together clusters of skills and how they can work in different places. And I think that’s going to be big in and of itself because people do get hung up on titles right now. And and that really limits how you can view yourself in different areas.

Lisa Lewis Miller  29:27  

It feels like there are all of these different parallel track changes happening there. Are these changes happening at the organizational level in what they value and what their strategy is around talent, talent acquisition, talent development. There are changes happening at the HR level and the recruiter level of when you’re looking at someone’s profile. What are you actually looking for? What are you measuring? What are you paying attention to and why? You know, I think that one of the big things that I hope is a lasting change that comes out of this pandemic is that people stop being passive Analyze for having gaps on their resumes. You know, if you took time off to be with a sick family member, or you took some time off, because you wanted to have some babies, we shouldn’t be looking at that and thinking, Oh, this person is a liability, we come back to that skills based assessment of what a person is capable of and how they can contribute. whether or not you’ve taken a couple years off for a sabbatical for medical reasons for your family becomes much less relevant. And then I think we’re seeing that transition happen at the at the individual level, and how we’re starting to think about ourselves and to your point, talk about ourselves as candidates, because Wouldn’t that be a fabulous day when nobody uses their title to describe what they do and who they are anymore? And you’re able to speak to it from a much more authentic place? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  30:53  

It’s true, I think, a lot. There’s a lot out there right now on gaps, and how, you know, I’m not sure what even took us this long to get to this point. But But how is it anyone’s business to take or wanted to take a few months off a few years off to do something else? How does that make you any less valuable? And to the articles that I’ve read point? How is that anybody’s business because it’s not about your capability to do the job. It’s something that you did for personal reasons that’s outside of work. So I think you’re right, it’s finally time companies are learning that that is not the red flag that they thought it was. But I do want to touch on red flags, because I think one of the things that people don’t often understand is that in the initial stages, the hiring process is really about elimination, not selection. And what I mean by that is, if you have 300, resumes, or applications, you obviously can’t interview all these people. So you really want to your brain kind of goes into that mode of who’s easily able to be eliminated from this pile. And it might be somebody whose salary is outside of the range. In the past, it’s definitely been somebody who has a gap, because we don’t know why that was, and we’re just going to assume that wasn’t a good. Or it might be that you don’t have a college degree, or there’s there’s many, many things. Now these, when I say red flags, I want to be clear that these are not, these are not necessarily things that are bad about you as a candidate, but it’s something that the employer might use as an assumption, to say, yeah, this is not something I want to deal with. But if you know that that’s kind of their initial process to weed down that that big pile into a manageable group that they can phone screen eventually bring in, you can you can plot your strategy better, and you can think about, okay, what’s gonna make me the candidate of choice. And you can make sure you have all of that stuff, front and center. And, you know, I say match for standout second. So you always want to go in understand your audience what they want match first. And then when you’re down to the, you know, final two or three candidates, you’re always going to get the question what makes you different. And then you can bring out your unique qualities and some of those things that might be different about you because you’re making a pivot. But I think I think you kind of have to get into the mind of the hiring manager and what they’re going through, they have a full time job, it’s not hiring, they’re trying to make a really good decision. And at the end of the day, they want somebody who can do the job won’t need their handheld, and it’s gonna make them look good and their team look good and achieve their their annual goals. And if you can convince somebody you can do that the rest really shouldn’t matter.

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:35  

Yeah, well, and I appreciate you bringing up the biases that whether they are conscious or unconscious, intentional or unintentional that recruiters, HR screeners and hiring managers bring into the process. I think from a systemic level, we all know that these biases don’t serve, getting the equitable, various best outcomes out of the system. And we also know that these biases exist as heuristics and shortcuts to make the process faster because people are overwhelmed or overloaded, or they have a million things on their plates. So until we continue to modernize and upgrade, HR and people ops philosophy and how they think about candidates to minimize or eliminate these biases, the world that we live in right now. I don’t I think it’s so important to make people aware of what the biases are that may come out in the screening process, so that you can equip yourself to to just be aware and to address those. I know that ageism, racism, sexism, all of these can have associated biases, and potential discrimination in the hiring process that is it fair? Absolutely not. Can we as singular individuals, change the system and revolutionize it completely on our own? No. So we’re in this sort of That icky middle ground where we know things are changing at a systemic level, but they are changing slowly. Right? So they change fully being aware of how to play the game, and how to be a match and set yourself up not to be eliminated. For reasons that might be are irrational or outside of your control. That’s, that is what your mission is, as a job seeker. 

Dr. Dawn Graham  35:22  

It really is. And I hope one day it doesn’t feel so much like a game. Because I know, that’s exactly how it feels for a lot of people. And, you know, they’re thinking about odds and, you know, ways to kind of navigate or, you know, get through the system. And it’s, you know, job search is hard enough as it is you’re you’re in a process of you’re trying to prove yourself make an impression you’re being evaluated. And all of these extra hurdles, just make it more anxiety provoking, and I’m with you, I’m, I’m fighting for the day when some of those extras do not need to be a consideration.

Lisa Lewis Miller  36:02  

Well Dawn knowing that you’ve been doing this work for a while and supporting people going through switches and career transitions. What are some of the things that you wish that people new, starting out before they dive into their transition process? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  36:18  

I think one of the things that I wish people spent more time on is self reflection, I think it’s it’s become somewhat of a lost art, because we’re always carrying a small computer in our hand. And I mean, I remember back in the day, we’d get in an elevator and we’d have nothing to do right, we’d have to just stand there awkwardly, like waiting for our floor, or we’re waiting at a bus stop or whatever it was. And now, we don’t really have a moment when when we’re not distracted by something. And so I think the art of self reflection is one that would help many, many people to really discover what it is that energizes them about their work, and really think about the different ways they can apply their skills to different environments and explore the new careers that didn’t exist and are coming out every day. And I think I think what we tend to do, and this is because technology has kind of made diseases, we tend to go online and enter or interact with whatever job boards or things like that. And then we tend to react. And when we react, it’s more like shiny objects. Like that sounds interesting. That sounds different. That sounds new. That sounds exciting. But it really doesn’t create a great situation for our own success. Because if we haven’t done the work to really understand our own values, our own likes, dislikes, where we get energy, what drains our energy, then then we’re just reacting versus doing some analysis around. Yeah, this fits the 10 criteria I’ve learned about myself and what I want. And I think that can really help people not only be more prepared for the job, search and interview and all these things, but really help people discern specifically what they want to do and clarify that target, which in my opinion, is one of the biggest aspects to being a successful job seeker. Or if you’re in a company and you’re looking for a promotion, or you’re looking to make an internal new, you’re going to be much more successful if you have that clear target. And you know exactly how it fits what your goals are.

Lisa Lewis Miller  38:27  

Making a commitment to pursue one specific direction and have one specific focus of clarity and focus of purpose is so important. And it is so hard. It feels like there’s so much pressure and stress and expectation that can come. And I don’t know about you, but I’m a big user of the enneagram. And with that personality tool, there’s a specific personality type where making a decision to take an option off the table feels like it is cutting off a limb. If you are an enneagram seven, and you’re listening to this right now and feel personally attacked. That’s because I’m talking about you. And when I think anybody is going through a career transition seven or not, there’s a lot of uncertainty and fear about, well, what if I’m committing to the wrong thing? What if I tell people I really want to be a director of paid social media somewhere, and then I apply, and then I realize, oh, gosh, I could do this, but this doesn’t feel good. This wouldn’t be fun. I don’t want to do this. How do you work with people who have that your crop up? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  39:39  

Yeah, I think clarity comes through action. And I think you do have to test the waters and whether you call it a pilot study or an internship or whatever, you want to call it a side gig project. I think we all have to kind of test the waters because what we see from the outside what looks great on paper isn’t always reality and So that’s where the self reflection comes in is if you know yourself, then when you go out there, and you start learning about different paths and different careers, and what it’s really like to work in that that environment or that culture, you could go back and overlay it against your list and say, Wow, you know, from the outside looking in this looked like it had all of my criteria. But now that I’ve learned about it by having an informational interview, or by by shadowing my neighbor who works in the company, this isn’t at all what I thought it would be. And I think I think you do have to do that. And I think we’ve all made mistakes. I mean, mistakes are not the end of your career mistakes can actually be some of the best things that you could do. Because you realize, wow, this is not where I want to spend the next 20 years. And so I often tell people, if you’re thinking about making a switch, you know, be careful about enrolling in a, you know, two year degree program, until you really try it on, because that’s a lot of time and money. And I’m very pro education. But But until you figure it out, that this is truly what you want to do, what happens in the classroom may be very different than what happens in real life. And so maybe take a class, maybe maybe do something on LinkedIn learning, maybe you know, kind of step into it and learn more about before you dive all in, because two things, one, you may decide at the end of these two years that wow, this isn’t anything like I thought now I’ve just spent two years and a lot of money. But you’re, then the second is, you’re still going to have that job search, the education might help you get some new networks and may help you get the language around the field. But you’re still going to be somebody who’s generally new to the field and your job search is still going to be there waiting for you so so be careful about taking those huge steps before you can get some clarity around what you want to do next.

Lisa Lewis Miller  41:54  

That philosophy of risk managing and taking baby steps and vetting and validating as you go is so great. And I love that you tied it to action, that whenever anybody’s coming up with a hypothesis about what they might want to do next, there’s totally the possibility you will be wrong. But the only way to find out if you’re going to be wrong is by taking actions to figure out how it feels. And if it in reality matches up with the hope and the dream that it seemed like you know, back in theory back when you first came up with the idea. And the more that you can come up with ideas, just like you were mentioning of small scale ways to test drive, whether it’s shadowing, interning, informational, interviewing, whatever that thing is, the more you gather data points upfront before you make bigger, higher risk leaps, the easier it’s going to be, the more safe it’s going to feel and the more competent and comfortable you are going to feel. And if that is not how somebody wants to feel in their job search, I don’t know what is. 

Dr. Dawn Graham  42:58  

And there really, I mean, there really are few career mistakes. If you end up in a job and you decide it’s not what you thought, you’re still going to learn what you’re going to learn about what you like what you don’t like, you’re probably going to build a few new skills. And then you only have to figure out what you want to do next, you don’t have to figure out what you want to do for the rest of your career. because quite honestly, it’s nearly impossible to do that. Because any path you choose today is going to look so different 10 years from now because of technology or because of how the world is shifting. So I would say take that pressure off of yourself, that I have to figure out the rest of my life today and say, What do I want to do next? Or what? What could I do next that will really help me build skills in an area that I would like to grow. And think about your career that way because the days of climbing the ladder and being in one company, so you retire those those are over for many professions, which again, I think is somewhat exciting, because we are going to continue to learn new things, we’re going to continue to meet new people, and we’re going to continue to see where our strengths are and where, you know, maybe we aren’t as strong. And that’s the opportunity that comes with all this. Yes, it’s a little bit more ambitious, and big us and it’s a little bit less structured. So if you like those things, that’s gonna feel a little harder for you. But if you kind of flip that, that anxiety into excitement and say, Wow, I can do something new and different. That will go a long way that mindset shift will go a long way in helping you see this as an opportunity. Instead of seeing it as gloom and doom.

Lisa Lewis Miller  44:42  

Leaning into challenge and change sound like such good healthy positive things, and especially in light of that 2014 study that you shared about the top most in demand jobs not having even existed five years earlier, but there might be opportunities presented to you in the next 510 15 20 years of your career that don’t even exist, because the technology doesn’t exist, the market doesn’t exist. The demand hasn’t been cultivated yet. Things haven’t caught up to where technology or where demand is. So there’s something that can be really exciting and really motivating about being willing to go with the flow of change and possibility and opportunities as they present themselves in the coming years.

Dr. Dawn Graham  45:29  

Yeah, the next, the next great opportunity, the next great industry may be in the works right now, and may come out next year. And you may say, wow, this is what I’ve been looking for. This is the exact fit for me. And so that that, to me is always exciting.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:45  

Absolutely. Well, Dawn, this has been such a pleasure, such a delight to get to have you on the Career Clarity Show today. And I am sure listeners feel the same way. So for anybody who is listening to this, who wants to get more Dawn goodness in their lives, where can they go to find out more? 

Dr. Dawn Graham  46:05  

Yeah, well, thank you, Lisa. I’ve enjoyed being here. This is one of my favorite topics. And you know, it’s certainly very timely. So thank you for having me on. LinkedIn is always the best place to find me, of course, send a personal note letting me know where you saw me. I also have several LinkedIn learning courses. One of the most popular is getting into the mind of the hiring manager because of everything we talked about. And of course, my website is a repository with lots of free content on it for any type of career switch, so you can go there. It’s Drdawnoncareers.com. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:39  

Well, Dr. Dawn, thank you again for coming and sharing your brilliance listeners of the Career Clarity Show in my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:53  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally find the work that fits your values and lifestyle. For the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.