121: Navigating the New Normal with Lindsey Pollak

This week on the Career Clarity Show I’m excited to be joined by Lindsey Pollak. We are going to be talking about navigating the new normal, the impact that COVID has had on the job market, what’s being provided by employers, and about flexibility. So if you are in the middle of a career conundrum and trying to figure out how to move forward this episode will definitely be for you. 

Lindsey shares her expertise as one of the world’s leading career and workplace experts. She’s passionate about helping individuals and organizations navigate and thrive in the ever changing world of work and recently released a fabulous book in response to the COVID crisis,  Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work. 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Recalculating: Navigate Your Career Through the Changing World of Work
• Lindsey Pollak
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Lisa Miller. And I’m delighted as always that you are with us today. 

Now, if you are listening to the Career Clarity Show who has been thinking about the what ifs, where to go, what to do, what’s next? Where do I go from here? You are going to love today’s episode of the podcast. Today on the podcast, I am bringing out a guest who I have had a professional crush on for many, many years and in fact applied to be her intern probably a decade ago to talk about what to do when you’re not sure what direction works for you moving forward, and you’re finding yourself in an opportunity to pivot or shall we say recalculate? On today’s episode of the podcast, we are going to be talking about navigating the new normal, talking about the impact that COVID has had on the job market on the labor market on what’s being provided by employers talk about flexibility. So if you are in the middle of a career conundrum, and trying to figure out how to move forward and how to navigate today’s episode of the podcast will definitely definitely be for you. Now, let me tell you a little bit about today’s guest. Today’s guest is Lindsey Pollak. Lindsey is a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world’s leading career and workplace experts. She’s passionate about helping individuals and organizations navigate and thrive in the ever changing world of work. She just released a fabulous book in response to the COVID crisis recalculating navigating your career through the changing world of work. And her previous book, the remix how to lead and succeed in a multigenerational workplace was named a book of the month by both Wall Street Journal and Financial Times. Lindsey, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Lindsey Pollak  2:20  

Lisa, thank you for having me. And I don’t even remember which in turn I hired. So you probably would have been a better choice and more memorable. So I’m glad that we are reconnecting and that you have followed this path as well. I’m delighted to be here. Well,

Lisa Lewis Miller  2:33  

I think that it says a lot of both of us are still in this space, a decade later. And I’m curious to hear a bit more about your origin story and what got you interested in this space and moving down this path professionally? years ago? So will you share a bit about that story?

Lindsey Pollak  2:52  

Yeah, absolutely. It was not a planned path, which I think is really important for people to keep in mind, I kept thinking that I would just sort of figure out how I wanted my career to develop. And it didn’t really happen that way. My mom started her own business when I was young. She was an artist and used to go to these classes held by the Small Business Administration, they had these Women’s Business Development Centers. And I think that probably sparked an interest in me and I ended up getting an internship in college at that Women’s Business Development Center. And the idea was that I would meet women doing interesting things and you know, sort of see somebody who appealed to me and follow that path. But I actually ended up getting more interested in this whole concept of helping people figure out their paths now identify that and of course, didn’t pursue that for many years, I still thought I would find my path. And I graduated graduate school into the sort of.com explosion in the late 1990s. And I was very fortunate that I got a job at a website that working woman magazine had started called working woman calm. So it was like this perfect confluence of startup commie tech culture, plus this women’s career development. And I would probably still be working there today loved it. It was in New York City where I want it to be, but it went bankrupt 18 months later. And while I was job hunting, it sort of hit me that I didn’t know how to do that. Well, there weren’t a lot of resources to help me do that. And that seemed like a problem. And I’ve heard the advice to write the book you wish you had, there’s probably an audience for it. And I did that in 2007 wrote a book called getting from college to career, which really was kind of the book I wish I had had when I was in that moment of trying to find my path and and being really stuck. So kind of kept my career moving forward by always thinking what am i struggling with, if I’m struggling with it, or I see other people struggling, maybe I can help. I also was an RA in college, which I think is part of my origin story. So I’m naturally drawn to kind of helping the next generation and passing along all my failures and, you know, anything I’ve learned so I try to keep that in mind, but that’s how I started

Lisa Lewis Miller  5:01  

Lindsey, I really appreciate you bringing in the RA piece of this because I think it’s so often we leave breadcrumbs for ourselves throughout our lives about who we are what we value, what we want to be doing, you know, because I think about that I applied to be your intern 10 or 15 years ago, and I only started this business six years ago, there was something in me that new many, many moons ago that this was an area of hopefulness in making a difference back then. And I love that you knew even in your RA days that there was a part of you that really wanted to help and support people. And when you started at the website, thinking it was going to be one thing or thinking you were going to be doing one kind of an internship and then having that turn into a totally different career path. It’s fabulous that you gave yourself the space and the permission to keep following your interest rather than feel like your career had to be something or had to look a certain way.

Lindsey Pollak  6:00  

You know, looking back, it all make sense, and is logical at the time, it was really painful. Because I was doing something different than most people it was, quote, normal to have a job with benefits. Many days, I wish I had and and in some ways I regret not having more of a formal corporate background, you know, to learn those processes and how it works and so on. But I think at some point, you have to, like you said, Follow the breadcrumbs, I love that. It really seemed to be that I had an entrepreneurial streak and working in an organization. And I interviewed for many jobs, I had some job offers, and I just couldn’t do it. And I wonder if that pull to entrepreneurship was there. And this is going back to the late 90s, early 2000s. There was no wework there were no Google Docs that you know, there was nothing to really support me. And I think what was really powerful was I finally started to meet other people who were blogging, and speaking and writing books and doing their own thing and finding that community was really powerful. It’s so much easier today. But it’s very hard to take a path that others aren’t taking. And I don’t want to make it sound like oh, I just knew exactly what I wanted to do. And started there were a lot of lean years. I remember at the book party for my second book, a friend of mine from college, I was probably 15 years out of college at that point said, Wow, I get it now I see what you’re trying to build. And I was like, oh, it only took 15 years for people to think that, you know, I found something that was successful. So I enjoy it now. But I did not have a planet. And I think it was very challenging. So I have a lot of empathy for people who are out there trying to do something different. And it’s not taking right away, because sometimes it takes a while to really develop.

Lisa Lewis Miller  7:35  

And I think that you really express that beautifully in your book. And I want to talk about recalculating and everything about that, because I think it’s going to be so helpful for our listeners. But I’m almost wondering if we can talk about that little nugget you just dropped in there about writing the book you wish you had. And what what was the question that prompted the first book? How did that lead you to the second the third? And then how did recalculating grow out of that? or How was it born out of that?

Lindsey Pollak  8:04  

Well, first of all, I love writing. And I love writing books, which I think makes me weird, because I would truly rather write an 80,000 word book than a tweet, I just like the long form. I like having a million posts on my wall. I like all my folders, I really enjoy a big, deep, thick project. So I have to say that I do think about the next book all the time, you know, hey, that would make a great book idea. So getting from college to career kind of poured out of me, it was just, you know, from beginning to end, what do I want to know. And you know, all the books out there that you know what color’s your parachute and all that they’re great, but I just didn’t feel like it spoke to people at my stage of life. So that was the genesis of that book. The second book, becoming the boss was about trying to hire insurance and manage people and realizing I had no idea what I was doing, even at working women, eventually, I was able to hire somebody, and nobody told me what to do or how to manage him. And so that was the book that sort of naturally came next. And what happened with that was I was really immersed in the millennial space. And for a while it was called a millennial expert, because that was the generation that was getting from college to career and becoming bosses. And then I was giving a lot of workshops and speeches based on the content of those two books. And I started to pay really close attention to the questions that I thought during the workshops. And often people say, you know, it’s really great to teach people to be first time managers. But what if I’ve been managing for 10 years? Or it’s really great to teach someone how to succeed in the first 10 years of their career, but what about everything beyond that? It’s great to understand millennials, but I’m a Gen X or myself, what about all the rest of us? And so that led to my third book, the remix how to lead and succeed in the multi generational workplace, which was kind of all these issues that evolved out of the work I had done and I will be very honest with you. I had no intention of writing a new book in 2020. I had just released the remix, I was still giving speeches. I had a fully booked calendar of events, and then COVID head and my entire speaking calendar. Went from fully booked for the whole year to empty in a two week period. And I was terrified. It was a horrible, horrible experience after building a business that I was really proud of to see how quickly it could completely fall apart. And I picked up the phone, I started calling people. And everybody was feeling that way, right? Like, what do we do whether you had a corporate job, whether you’re an entrepreneur, and immediately my instinct was, I’ve got to tell these people stories, I’ve got to collect the best of this and tell people how to move forward. Ironically, I think I did the book till May of 2020. And I was writing it as a post COVID book, because it did not occur to any of us that we would still be here, you know, in some way shape or form 1516 months later. So fortunately, I didn’t use that terminology in the book. But the idea was not just the pandemic, but this change so much. And I think the the idea of the book and recalculating is things can change on a dime, I got laid off from working woman, you know what happened with COVID, you always have to be prepared, and agile, no matter what, because whether it’s a global pandemic, or a layoff, or you know, anything can happen. And you’ve got to make sure you have the network and the knowledge and the resilience to to make it forward. So that was the the genesis of each of my four books.

Lisa Lewis Miller  11:14  

Well, let’s talk a little bit more about recalculating, because I think you’re absolutely right, that there was probably an opportunity to make it very COVID specific, but I think we’re seeing in this new reality of work and the future of work that this, this ain’t your mama’s job market. So much has changed about how we think about what’s possible, and what to ask for from employers and negotiation and flexibility and opportunity. And I love if you could just start us out with your your rules for recalculating.

Lindsey Pollak  11:48  

Sure. So the title, which I think most people are familiar with, is that moment when you’re driving your car, and you take a wrong turn, or you hit traffic and your GPS says recalculating wants to send you in a different direction. And although that can be daunting, and certainly was ultimately the book, and the rules, three calculators are optimistic, because I know when my GPS says recalculating, I feel good, because I feel like it’s okay, you can’t go that way. But there is another way, you can still achieve your goals, you can still move forward. And your GPS never says I’m sorry, Lisa, you have to go back to your driveway and start all over again, it takes what you’ve done, it takes the progress you’ve made. So keeping those in mind, it’s a very optimistic concept. But it does require you to make some changes, right, you can’t keep going the way you’re going. So rule number one is embrace creativity, which is you can’t keep doing what you’ve always been doing. If I decided in March of 2020, that I was a professional speaker and I spoke on stages. And that was it, I would not be in business today because I had to do something different. So I had to look at Of course, speaking online, doing more coaching, doing more writing, writing this new book, what are all the different ways that I can do what I do, but be more creative about the ways that I do it. So if you’re a job seeker that is looking at industries you had never considered that’s looking at different job functions, that’s looking beyond the geographic area, it’s sort of thinking about, you know, thinking outside the box about all the different ways that you can use your talents and skills to move forward. So number one is embrace creativity. Number two, creativity is really nice. But if you don’t do anything about it, it’s not going to help you. So number two is prioritize action, which is about taking steps forward. And there was a paralysis that hit with COVID that I think some people are still very much in. And I remember it when I was laid off from working woman when the company went bankrupt, which was Well, that was the job I wanted, I don’t want to make a change. And you can get very stuck. And I did and I have a lot of empathy for that. And it’s interesting promoting this book. Normally, with my work, I get very tactical questions like what do I put on my LinkedIn profile? This book, it’s been much more mindset. And a lot of people have said, I’m just so down, you know, I just can’t get up in the morning. And I really understand that the mental health challenges of COVID have been so severe, but the only antidote for I don’t want to say clinical depression, you know, certainly seek help if you need it. But if you’re down, if you’re in a negative mindset, you’ve got to take a step forward, you’ve got to do the tiniest baby step that gets you in the job market, maybe it’s not applying for a job, maybe that’s too much. Maybe it’s just updating one sentence on your LinkedIn profile. So prioritize action is about building momentum and taking action every day. Now, if you’re happily employed, and you want to move forward in your career, it’s thinking about you 10 years from now, or 20 years from now, what can I do today to take action towards the goals that I think I’m going to want to have. So that’s number two. Number three is control what you can I am a certified card carrying control freak. And if anything was going to teach you that you are not in control, it is a global pandemic. And the reality was, I could not control the pandemic. There was nothing I could do about it and in a way that’s somewhat freeing, because there’s literally nothing you can do. And so you have to focus on what you can control, which is your work ethic. You know, I kept going, it’s how many people I called in a day and the networked with it was, you know, my attitude was continuing to eat healthy, right. And that kind of fall in. And on the topic of work ethic, just a quick story about control. One of the things I looked into was being an adjunct professor, right, teaching at some colleges as another potential option. And there was a woman who is a fellow author, who I admire very much, and she had two adjunct positions. And of course, when I was in my negative headspace, I thought, Well, that’s because she’s perfect and amazing, and magic, and she gets all the opportunities, and I suck. And then I called her. And I said, How do you get those teaching positions? And you know, she said, I applied for 200. And I got two.

And I thought, Wow, that’s a lot of work. But I can do work. That’s just work ethic that’s just submitting applications. That’s not magic. I can control submitting applications. And so if you think about what is in my control, what can I do, you can’t control whether you get the job or not. But you can control the number of applications. And I know this is not good news. But in the worst days of COVID, in the worst unemployment times, people were applying to hundreds of jobs before they got hired, but they got jobs, they just had to control what they could which the variable was the number of times they applied. So quickly, for us know your non negotiables, which is knowing what you will not compromise on you probably have to compromise in a tough job market. But you don’t have to compromise everywhere, whether it’s flexibility or salary, or a company with a mission, get very, very clear on your top priority. never compromise on that bend in other ways. And number five is ask for help. And I know anyone who’s listening to your podcast and knows your work is somebody who does that there is help and support absolutely everywhere. And people really want to help you. So while the instinct is often to maybe be ashamed of a job, hunt or not reach out to people, there are so many people who want to help. And one of the stats I found in reading, recalculating is that in the early days of the pandemic, and merchant April of 2021 of the top searches on Google was how can I help just a generic How can I help people want to help each other but you have to reach out to tap into that generosity. So don’t be afraid to do that.

Lisa Lewis Miller  17:21  

Lindsey, there’s so many good threads to pull on for everything that you’ve just shared. And I want to come back to you sharing that you are a certified control freak, because anybody who is listening to this podcast might be nodding their heads a little bit in in some empathy there. And in some, some very similar feelings. And what you shared about looking at what you can control, looking at what you can’t control, and doubling down on the things that are within your control is so important. But to your point about the mindset questions that you’ve been receiving, it’s absolutely a mindset shift. I think for so many of us who are top performers who have been promoted pretty regularly who maybe haven’t been laid off ever in your career. It feels as if you’re lulled into this false sense of complacency that everything is within your control. And that you can move all the different variables and all the different things around to to make things work. I think that one of the biggest mindset and attitude shifts that came from COVID, was the humbling realization of how little is actually within any of our control. And I’m wondering about the intersection point, with the desire to be in control and control what you can. And this feeling of I liked the job that I had, I didn’t want to leave, or I didn’t like what I had. But I don’t even know where to go and how to get started. I imagine you probably ran into lots of free calculators who were sort of swimming in this sea of uncertainty of, I’ll take action, I’ll do what I need to do once I know where to go. But I feel like I don’t even know what coordinates to put into the GPS in my car to start the calculating from.

Lindsey Pollak  19:14  

It’s true. I’ll address the first part of your question first, which is people were laid off and didn’t want to or were happy on the path they were on and don’t want to recalculate? I was really struck by how many people describe job loss as similar to grief. And I think that’s really powerful. And I think a lot of people went through, you know, certainly if you lost a loved one, but just the experience of losing our everyday lives was grief. And you have to experience grief and you have to get through it. And that’s okay. So you might have a period of mourning the job that you lost, you might have to really go through those feelings. I interviewed somebody from the Pittsburgh area and said when the steel mills closed in the 1970s there were people who just never got over it. Right. And the difference was some people grieved and felt sad and you know, and then sort of accepted that they were not coming back those jobs and moved forward. So Again, I kind of go back to this idea of action, which is even when you have no idea what you want to do take action anyway. And I think research is a really helpful way to do that, whether it’s ideally through other people, or through, you know, the internet, which makes it so easy, which is just start looking at job postings, I used to say, in the old days to get like the Sunday, help one IDs and just flip through and just circle anything that appeals to you, and start looking for patterns, you’re probably more clear, you know, you might think you have 100 things you’re interested in, but it’s probably more like seven, right, and that’s a manageable number. So start to do that start to follow companies and industries and people on social media, and look for patterns of what is appealing to you. If you feel jealousy or envy, that’s a sign that that’s something that you might want. So think of the people that you are envious of. And I think really meeting with people is the most important part, I also have a really big fan of career assessment tests, I actually offer one in the book from cap finity, a company I’m a spokesperson for it’s called strengths profile, and it looks at what you’re good at and what you enjoy. And there are a lot of people who have a lot of skills that they’ve really never identified as something they could do in a job, particularly if you were a stay at home parent, I mean, who would have thought an RA was sort of the basis of my career, there was a chef that I write about in the book, who lost his job because of COVID when the restaurant closed, and you know, he’d actually been sort of looking for the next thing. Anyway, he took a career assessment that pointed out that he was really good at and enjoyed logistics, he liked ordering the ingredients, right, and the distribution and planning the, you know, the menus and all that. And there was a lot of planning and organization that he was good at, he took a one credit online course and got a great job in logistics ended up being a really good fit for him. So sometimes you don’t even identify in yourself, what you might be good at. And interestingly, there was an economic study that I quoted what they called changing lanes, which I loved because it kept up with the car metaphor. And said, a lot of people think that changing careers means starting from scratch, but it rarely does, you might have 60 or 70% of the skills from one job that could go into another, you just need to identify them and rewrite your resume in a way that makes it make sense. But it’s very rare that you’re going from zero, you know, in one thing to starting a new career. And so I think when people accept that they are further along than they think sometimes it’s easier to make those choices.

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:23  

And something that standing out to me about your responses is the emotional management piece of this, that it’s not that you are saying don’t feel like just suck it up and power through and don’t feel the grief, it’s actually allow yourself the space to go through the stages of grief to go through the denial, the anger, the all the things that are coming up, and process them and move through them. And that that amount of emotional agility and the ability to notice that something is disappointing or a loss or frustrating. And feel feels and then move through it sounds like one of the biggest keys to being able to operationalize and actualize these five rules for re calculators.

Lindsey Pollak  23:14  

Yeah, most embarrassed that I hadn’t written about mindset and emotional management in my previous books, but with COVID like, there was no choice, right? Absolutely. burst through. It’s the first chapter of the book is about mindset. And I think I denied it in myself, you know, when I lost my job at working women, I was sad. And I think part of sort of not getting another job after it was that I really didn’t want to I wanted to go back to what had existed before. And I think a lot of people feel that way in their careers or about COVID. I’m a huge fan of therapy. I’ve been in therapy for years, you know, I think we all can benefit from it. But you know, even if that’s not something that you’re comfortable with, there is a group of people I interviewed who had been laid off from a large fashion company. And they were bond, right. And they were friends and they started a little text group to support each other said, you know, hey, you know, what jobs are you looking at, I saw this might be interesting. And that kind of emotional support is so powerful. I even think when I left working woman, a friend of mine who had a whole company shut down. So we are all laid off. We used to meet for breakfast twice a week. And that really helped. Right? It was just someone to commiserate with and plan with and, you know, do something with and so now especially as we’re, you know, kind of getting back to being able to socialize, you know, don’t isolate yourself really go out into the open, there are jobs out there that are opening up. But I think that sense of community and support of people who really understand what you’re going through is is just so incredibly powerful.

Lisa Lewis Miller  24:41  

It feels like the perfect synthesis of rule two and rule five, that asking for help getting support, seeking out community, but then taking action to create that or find that or to to lean into some of the vulnerability and the fear that comes to saying hey, I’ve been impacted by this situation, I don’t know what to do. I’m feeling afraid I’m feeling listless. You know, I don’t know how to move forward. That can be such a powerful, powerful combination. And I think that to your point about mindset, one of the hardest things for folks was this sense of I’ve been, my job was affected during the pandemic. What does that say about me? Does that mean I am defective? Or a broken toy? Does that mean I’m on higher a bowl are people going to judge me for this situation, and it feels like that combination of taking action and seeking help is so critical in assuaging those fears.

Lindsey Pollak  25:45  

You know, it’s so funny, you know, I think this also goes back to rule number three, control what you can, I was so struck, and I mean, I was writing this book in the depths of the pandemic, before we had any vaccines on the horizon. I mean, it was really dark times. And I was so struck by certain people who said, I got laid off, any company will be lucky to have me, you know, back on the job market, or I’ve been home with my kids for five years, you know, I’m raring to go, people are gonna be so excited to hire me, they just didn’t accept that it was a barrier. And then other people would say, you know, I got laid off, so I don’t think anyone’s gonna hire me, or I’ve been out of the workplace for five years, and no one’s gonna want to hire me. It’s your choice, the situation is what it is. But I was so struck by people in the exact same situation, who would have a totally different mindset about it. And it was so striking that that is your choice to decide, I’m going to get a job, I’m going to make this work, I’m going to spin it. And I will say one other thing. Now that we are so far down the road with COVID. There is no shame in being laid off, or not having a job during COVID, or staying home to take care of loved ones, or God forbid, being ill or losing a loved one. Nobody will hold that against you. But they will ask why you haven’t been employed for 14 months, they will ask why you left your last position. So you’ve got to do the work to prepare an answer. That is positive to say, you know what, I had to quit my job to stay home with my children. I’m so honored that I had that time and got them through the pandemic. Now, I’m so excited to be back in the workplace, how you handle that question? Is what people are looking for. It’s not the fact that you stepped out, it’s that you have an answer to that question that helps people understand where you are, if you say instead, yeah, I know, you probably don’t want to hire me, because you know, I haven’t been working for a while and I got laid off from my last job, then they’re not gonna hire you. So you’ve got to spin it, you’ve got to tell that story in a positive way. So I do encourage people to have a good answer to that question, what have you been doing? Or you know what happened? So that is a positive, productive conversation that makes people want to work with you. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And I think

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:53  

highlighting that mindset underpins the career story, is a critically important link, because there are so many different ways to tell our stories. And as you talked about in the book, getting your career story in a place where it feels empowering, forward looking, hopeful, optimistic, positive, is important. And it’s not impossible. It’s work that you can do. And it’s something that is within your control. And one of the things that we talk about a lot here at Career Clarity Show Is that how you tell your story about being a career changer and moving into something new and different matters. And that just nailing your story and having it on paper is not usually sufficient. Because so often folks want to say, Okay, let me just perfect my resume. And I’ll make this perfect bullet proof piece of paper. And that will be all that I need to find a job. And I think as you articulate really beautifully in the following chapter of the book around networking, that if you’ve got a fabulous story, but you are not pounding the pavement, or sort of virtually pounding the pavement as we’ve had to do for the last two, whatever, it’s been 1618 months. And people don’t know what your story is and what you’re looking for and how to help you. The story by itself is necessary but not sufficient.

Lindsey Pollak  29:19  

The resumes and LinkedIn profiles are important, but we all know 70% or you know are some jobs come from networking. It doesn’t mean don’t apply online, of course, do that as well. But you’re far more likely to get a job if somebody can recommend you. You know, personally, I remember recruiter said, I have two stacks of resumes on my desk. This is in the old days before they were all virtual. And she said one stack is this tiny little stack from people I know and then I have a huge stack that come off of you know, job listings, you want to be in the small stomach. Now of course go ahead and apply normally to but take the second door, which is somebody recommends you and it’s so interesting to me. I mean I talk about careers all the time as to you so this is comfortable for us, but I wouldn’t hesitate to ask you where you get your hair cut, or where you got that blouse or where your kid goes to soccer, asking people for referrals and recommendations, we do that all the time. This is the same thing, hey, I’m looking for a job. Hey, do you know anybody who works in media? Hey, do you know anybody who works in logistics, etc. It’s the same kind of conversation. But somehow we get shameful about it. And you have to treat it the same way. Now, I’m not going to hand you my resume and cover letter. It’s a casual conversation to start. But that’s how these things go. And the one thing that I will say, I recommend a lot of people for jobs, if I recommend you for a job, and you get that job, and you do well, I look awesome. There’s something in it for me, too. So it’s not it is a favor. But it’s also a favor where everybody wins, because it’s very hard to find a good fit for a job. So if you are really confident, and believe you’re going to do a great job, then we’re both gonna win. If you get the job, if you show gratitude to me, I feel doubly good because you got the job. And I made the world a better place. So don’t hesitate to do that. It’s just how the world works. And I think there is a little bit of bravery here, which is getting past that discomfort, and knowing that you’ll pay it forward with other people when you are happily employed. And they ask for jobs as well. So if you go in knowing that, I don’t think you should be shy about asking people for help, it is a very hard thing to do. But you have to do it if you want to get a job.

Lisa Lewis Miller  31:26  

And I think to expand upon that, for those of us who are going through career change. Sometimes telling your story in person in a casual way is one of the best ways to test it, to see how it’s resonating. And to recognize what details you need to share about your background. To show why the pivot or the recalculation that you are curious about is actually a great fit for you. I think it’s so difficult to tell the complete story with a perfect little bow on it in your resume or your LinkedIn alone. Because if you used to work in, I don’t know, engineering or manufacturing, and now you’re wanting to work in media relations, your employers and your job titles are what they are. And you can do a fabulous job in talking about the transferability of what you were doing in that role, and really trying to highlight that in your experience bullets. But sometimes it’s just hard to connect the dots on paper without a human storytelling element to it. So I think one of the biggest things about asking for help from people, whether it is virtually or in person, is that you get a chance to clarify some of the questions to hear some of the assumptions. And to make sure that you’re connecting the dots on why you want to make the transition that you do in a way that will make it compelling and make people want to recommend you and want to go to bat for you and stick out their necks for you so that you can get to whatever that next interview or whatever that next opportunity is.

Lindsey Pollak  32:56  

The other big piece that is you’ve got to be passionate about it. Like you’ve got to make me excited for your career change. Because if you’re not excited about it, I’m not really that interested. But if you’re super excited about it, I’m going to buy into that. So I think the emotion and the passion is also really, really important.

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:12  

Okay, it’s another piece of that emotional management game. And that emotional agility game is that if you aren’t enthusiastic, right, if you have a question mark at the end of every one of your sentences, that’s what the listener is going to hear. And they’re going to remember to so doubling down on your hypothesis about what could be next that could be great for you. And being willing to almost strip off any professionalism veneers you feel like you have had to adopt to be sort of buttoned up or to be corporate or whatever it is to allow a little bit more of your natural personality and humaneness to shine through in the storytelling is such a powerful tool that you have in your toolbox. That doesn’t require you know, taking any big public speaking class, it really requires just peeling off some of the layers that we have learned in a lot of white collar corporate environments on being very closed off or very businesslike or very linear to the point. very focused.

Lindsey Pollak  34:13  

Well said I couldn’t agree more.

Lisa Lewis Miller  34:15  

Well, Lindsey, I know we’ve talked about the five rules, the importance of story. We’ve talked about networking. I’m curious knowing how many ri calculators you interviewed for the book. What were some of the biggest trends or themes or lessons learned that really stood out to you through all the research?

Lindsey Pollak  34:38  

So number one was community, just the power of finding your community, whether it was those laid off job seekers who all banded together, people who would sign up for webinars and realize if you’re in a webinar, those are like the power users, right if somebody is gonna bother to do a webinar for an association, their power users so go after those people, right, post your LinkedIn, you know in the chat and introduce yourself because those the people who want to help, so it was sort of community with the people who want to be helpful. So I think that was really powerful. Number two was, again, work ethic. So many people said, I just had to talk to that five people, but 50 people not apply to 100 jobs, but 300 jobs. And I know that sounds tough, but I actually think it’s empowering, which is it just takes time and hard work. So if you do five resumes a day or two resumes a day or two phone calls a week, that really adds up over time, and the people who are willing to put in the work, always, always always saw it results. And third, I think is that mindset piece, which is, you know, have your friends, family and friends as support, get mad, you know, joke around, do what you need to do. But if you don’t believe you’re going to get a job. And I think this with something like ageism, or people who’ve been out of the workforce discrimination is real. Sexism is real. Racism is real. ageism is real, some environments are toxic, right? I can’t change that. I can’t control that I try. But I can’t control it in the job search. So you have to go in and decide that I’m not going to look at all the potential downsides, I’m not going to worry that people think I’m too old or think I’ve been out of the workforce too long, I’m just going to move forward with my job search, right, I’m going to stay in my lane. And so the people who worried all the time, well, I heard there are no jobs. And I heard this industry is dying. And I heard nobody wants a working mom, you can’t let that get in your head, it’s not going to serve you. So get it out, complained to a friend right at your journal. But when you’re in the job hunt, you have to really believe that it’s possible and going to happen. And I talked about using envy as a catalyst. You know, I think reading stories of people who successfully find jobs, you know, looking for that positivity, looking at people’s LinkedIn profiles that you admire and seeing what their path was, I think that’s really, really powerful. So mindset, again, is just absolutely the most critical piece. It’s hard right now, but find a way to get yourself in the mindset. Because if you don’t believe you’re going to get a job, I don’t think you’ll get a job.

Lisa Lewis Miller  37:04  

That’s such an important recognition point. I think for anybody who is listening. If there’s doubt in your heart, or in your mind, that doubt comes out in how you behave, and the energy that other people pick up on across the table. And you have to think about the beliefs that you have and whether or not they’re serving you. Right? does it serve you to believe that nobody wants to hire somebody who is a mom who’s re entering the workforce? does it serve you to believe that it’s a really, really hard job market?

If that doesn’t then manifest in you saying, Well, I’m going to work even harder, or I’m going to put in even more effort, and even more initiative. I think that sometimes we can allow ourselves into this false sense of it’ll happen when it happens. And maybe it’s just not meant to work out for me. And your point about hard work is so, so important. And pairing that with an empowering motivational mindset is really what is going to change the game, move the needle and help people land in places that feel good at the end of their recalculating journey. Now, Lindsey, for somebody who’s been listening to this and thinking, Man, this is so helpful. I really want to nail my story. I really want to dive more deeply into these concepts so that I can have a successful recalculation in my own path. Where are some of the places that you would direct someone on? How to get started in creating this momentum in your own life?

Lindsey Pollak  38:34  

Well, thank you so much. My book is called recalculating. navigate your career to the changing world of work. It’s available on Amazon or your favorite independent bookstore. My website is my name Lindsey Pollak calm and I have a newsletter that goes out every month with inspirational tips and ideas for people. So I also welcome connection on LinkedIn. That’s my favorite social network. And I usually post on LinkedIn every day to help people move forward as well.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:01  

Well, Lindsey, that is amazing. And your work is such a gift. And if you are new to the Lindsey Pollack fan club, and you’re listening to this book, so I will make sure to link all of those in the show notes so that you can check them out no matter where you are in your own personal journey around recalculating being the boss, navigating what’s next, leading a multi generational workforce, whatever is on your radar, Lindsey’s probably got a book for you.

So Lindsey, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show today for writing your book or living in the body of work that you do, and for using that ra impulse to help people and having that manifest in such a beautiful way over the course of your career.

Lindsey Pollak  39:41  

Thank you, Lisa. And thank you for the wonderful work that you do and for having me on the podcast. I look forward to meeting your listeners.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:55  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review You on Apple podcasts because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes, your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally find the work that fits your values and lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.