Episode 90: Inspiration For Your Career Ambitions with John Neral

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

Today on the Career Clarity Show, we are talking about yet another inspiring story of career pivots and questions in an effort to show up like your most authentic, energized, excited self. If you’re the kind of person who has been pondering a career change, pondering whether or not there’s space for you and your dreams, I think you’re gonna get something wonderful out of this conversation. Our guest, John Neral, will help give you a sense of clarity and direction in what could be next for you.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

SHOW NOTES:

• John Neral
• Episode 58: Becoming an Inclusive Leader with Brittany Cole
• Facebook: @johnneralcoaching 
• Instagram: @johnneralcoaching 
• LinkedIn: @johnneral
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Lisa Miller. And I am delighted to have you with us today. On today’s episode of the podcast, we are going to be talking about yet another inspiring story of somebody who has made their own career pivots and changes and decisions and questions in an effort to be able to really show up like your most authentic, energized, excited self. I’m excited for today’s guest, because he’s definitely got a track record of walking his dog on this and are really bringing it to life and making it a reality, which I think is going to be really fun to get to share. So if you’re the kind of person who has been pondering a career change, pondering whether or not there’s space for you, whether or not there’s space for your dreams, whether or not it’s worth it, to make a move, make a change, or be at a tiny infant, decimally small shift, or something that feels like you were just flipping the table on life, I think you’re gonna get something wonderful out of today’s episode. So keep listening, if you are looking for a little inspiration for your own career ambitions and dreams. Keep listening, if you are on the cusp of feeling like you’re ready to make a shift, but you’re needing a little bit of a push to make sure that you’re going to land and that that parachute is going to go off and you’re going to be okay. And listen to today’s episode. If you have been wanting to figure out a little bit more of a roadmap for yourself on what’s next, where you’re going, why you’re even making a shift, because I think some of the insights that are going to come out of today’s conversation will help give you a sense of clarity, a sense of direction, a sense of confidence in what could be next for you, that hopefully will be exactly what you need to feel like you’ve got the permission and the space to make some changes in your life. That’ll feel really, really good. We’re going to do that with today’s guest, John Neral. John reawakens energizes galvanizes and innovates the mind think of employees, corporations, associations and systems, a celebrated executive and career and professional development coach. And in demand mindset shifting public speaker John’s professional walk includes a 25 year career in education, and a longstanding corporate consultant for Fortune 500, giant Cassio America, he now leads John Narrow Coaching LLC, one of the most progressive mindset shifting professional and organizational coaching and public speaking firms in the US, and is the author of the book show up six strategies to lead a more energetic and impactful career. John has got all sorts of other cool things about his background that I imagine we might get into in our conversation today. So I don’t want to spoil all the surprises and all the intrigue there for you. But I am really excited to get to riff with him and talk about the path towards showing up in your most energized, excited, authentic self in your work. So, john, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

John Neral  3:30  

Well, Lisa, thanks so much for having me on today, I’m so glad we get to spend some time together,

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:35  

likewise. And I feel like one of the things that made me really excited to get to talk to you is that along the pathway in your own career progression and advancement, there were a couple opportunities for you to make decisions that were a little bit different than how other people might have made decisions. You know, when I think about people who work in the field of education, oftentimes people who are in that space are lifers. And you go into it, because you want to be there for 40 years, and you want to end your career, with your pension and with your sheet cake and with the celebration with all your past colleagues and all your former principals coming or all your former supervisors coming to celebrate you. And I think that pivoting out of education, in and of itself takes a lot of courage and is a decision that’s a little bit different from the norm. So can you start our conversation today by sharing with listeners about some of the different decision points you encountered along the way through your career trajectory so far, and how you approach those choices?

John Neral  4:45  

Sure, and you summed that up so well, because not only is that really kind of an expectation or a belief that educators are lifers in that way. But to really pivot Out of that takes a lot of clarity in terms of what it is that for me specifically what I wanted, I was really fortunately. So I worked at a wonderful school district in northern New Jersey, I jokingly say, embarrassingly next to the Real Housewives of New Jersey, so it gives you some context there and everything. But I spent 14 years there. And I remember starting my first week, and one of the guys who taught down the hall for me, who was he was a senior teacher, he had been there for over 30 years. And he looks at me and he goes, I just want you to know, you’re gonna retire from here. And I was in my late 20s. And I thought, Oh, God, I hope not. Right, like, like, what else is there like, this is a great place to be, but what else is there. And so for an educator, that first milestone is you want to get tenure, right, which for me at the time was three years in one day. And so you’re doing quality work, you’re doing everything you can, you’re going above and beyond. And then you get that tenure. And so you have the security of tenure, but you still have to do quality work, it’s not the permission to just dial it in, in that regard. And so I loved what I was doing. So being a middle school teacher, we’re really a very odd and unusual breed. Okay, so we’re not the elementary teachers that are so great with small kids and helping them grow and develop. And we’re not the high school teachers, where we’re prepping them for college and everything else that goes immediately beyond what happens after high school graduation. I often say like, we got to deal with the hormones, right. And for me, being a successful teacher, it was about knowing the days when my students wanted to be treated like adults, and other times when they wanted to be treated like kids. And teaching math was not always the easiest thing in the world. Because if if you and your listeners kind of think back to what your experiences were in math class, they may not have been always the best. Right?

Lisa Lewis Miller  7:15  

Yeah, I am married to a middle school music teacher and so that that hormones piece, the volatility, the wanting to both be treated like adults, and treated like kids at the same time, pe is totally, totally resonates. And I think you’re absolutely right, that the field attracts a very special kind of individual who can hold space for kids who are struggling, not just struggling with learning and mastering the concepts that you know, and understanding all the things that they’re trying to learn from, from the book just in the math context, but zooming out into navigating adolescence and puberty and their role in their family and understanding how to make friendships that feel meaningful. It’s a lot.

John Neral  8:03  

It is, right? It’s a lot. And so obviously, we’re talking about very dedicated people who are invested in teaching kids and being a part of that community and everything. And in teaching math, one of the things that I learned and it was such a valuable lesson, which was, there is a point in time in our lives where math gets hard. Right? So for some kids, it might be when they’re first learning algebra, or For others, it might be struggling with long division, whatever it is, but how they kind of navigate through figuring out what they need to learn and develop those kind of problem solving skills. There was a really nurturing and caring component to simply acknowledge and validate what was going on, which is coaches what we do that all the time, right, we acknowledge and validate what’s going on for our clients and help move them, but then be like, Okay, so how are you going to go ahead and figure this out. And that’s where so much of the great learning comes in. And so I had this great job I was, I had my classes, I was doing some instructional coaching and professional development. On the side, I had started a tutoring business, I was doing a consultancy, because as teachers, we know, we typically don’t make a whole lot of money. So we’re doing all these other things to help build things up. And then working on a second master’s degree and all those kinds of things in the process to move further along on the guide. And so there’s a really defining moment. And I think for anybody who’s searching for career clarity, these are these pivotal moments that happen in our career where we wake up a little bit to realize that voice that’s going on inside of our head, and I was getting ready to teach a lesson on multiplying fractions to the 25 students. Were in front of me. And this little voice inside of my head goes, You can’t do this anymore. You’re just not into this anymore. And because we are good at our jobs, and we can multitask, I could move through the lesson while I still had this little voice going on inside of my head. And as I started thinking about that, it was really an opportunity for me to figure out why I wasn’t as happy as I had been. So for me, it was about making that advancement. My district was not structured in a way at the time, to have, say, department chairs or supervisors that had more of an administrative role. And so I was like, well, I really want to work on developing teachers, I still want to honor the educator in me, but I want to shift my focus from working with kids to more so working with adults. And that was a really pivotal moment. Because from an identity standpoint, how do I go from saying to myself, hey, I’m a middle school mathematics teacher, to now being an instructional coach, a professional development specialist, a supervisor, whatever that may be, and then positioning myself accordingly to go apply for those kinds of jobs. And that was, that was definitely a pivotal moment. For me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  11:33  

That identity piece of it that you’re touching on is so critical, and it’s so easy to overlook. Because it can feel like our work is just the thing that we do. We feel like we compartmentalize it, that’s just the thing that I do from eight until six or nine until five, it’s not who I am. But it can’t not be a piece of who you are, and how you show up in the world. And the way that you’re serving, the sorts of things that you are dedicating a huge amount of brain Space and Heart space and energy to every single day. And sometimes the ability to release the identity. So that you can step into a different one, I almost think about like a hermit crab, like leaving its shell, and searching out for another one that’s a little bit bigger, that allows you the space to grow and expand is where some of the biggest vulnerability and the biggest courage tends to come up.

John Neral  12:32  

Absolutely. Because without being clear on who we are, and who do we help, and what do we help them do specifically? I can’t go into an interview and even begin to really answer that. Tell me about yourself question, if I’m not clear on what my role or my purpose is, and how my skill sets going to help that new organization, or that new district or that new team or whatever it might be. And I remember as I started looking for jobs, and I started interviewing, and I was networking more, there, were there were all of these decisions in terms of do I stay within the educational system? Or do I decide to branch out. And so at the time in the state of New Jersey, you needed 10 years of service in order to be vested in the pension. And so this, so I started thinking about this around like the end of year eight, beginning of year nine. And so very early on, I had some financial handcuffs on me, and that I didn’t want to give up my pension when it came time for me to retire, even if was only going to be 10 years in the system. And so I thought, Well, okay, I’m gonna ride this out and everything. And I had interviewed for several jobs. There were numerous times where I got to be like one of the top three selected finalists, and only to find out that it was someone internally who got the job. But as I was being escorted from the room, I was told, luckily, typically hire internally, but you’ve made this really hard for us. And I thought, okay, so that means I interviewed well, and I did good and, and everything, but then life happens, right? And sometimes, events happen in our lives, where we welcome them. We don’t necessarily expect them, but we welcome them, and then they kind of impact some career decisions. And that’s exactly what happened to me. So, in 2008, I met my now husband, and in 2010, we made a decision that we were dating long distance, so he was in Washington, DC, I was in northern New Jersey. And because he was really happy in his job and he had a job where moving was not really an option for him. We made a decision. But I would be the one to move. Now, I did this very carefully and cautiously and he was obviously in agreement with it because I was fortunate that I had a clause in my teaching contract because I had been there over seven years, that I could take a year’s leave of absence to try something out. And I could still come back to my job if I wanted. So failsafe. Right. So not that you go into things thinking that things are going to fail, because thankfully, they did not. We’re still together and happily married and all that. But it gave me an opportunity to level up in a really bigger way that had life not happened, I would never have explored. So knowing that I wanted to work with teachers, knowing that I wanted to do more professional development, and that serving as an instructional coach was really important for where I saw myself professionally. I had an opportunity and got it, which was to be on a team of instructional coaches, but like, but we were, we were called professional development specialists, essentially, we managed a team of instructional coaches. And so I supervise 22 instructional coaches across 13 middle schools in the district of columbia public schools. And so I went from this very nice, very nice six figure salary in northern New Jersey, to to move for some personal but also professional reasons to level up my responsibilities. And at the same time, took a 15% pay cut. So, so I had all this clarity, it was really good. But I was also doing a lot of life moves. And in that clarity, it was also worth it for me to take the pace step back, in order to really elevate where I was going.

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:57  

I love the way that you’re articulating how you’re thinking about that decision. Because one of the things that I’ve seen over and over again, is that when we feel like we don’t have clarity on what’s most important to us, and what we value, the prospect of making any change from the status quo is terrifying, because the place that our brain naturally goes is I’m going to lose everything, I’m going to lose everything that I worked for, I’m going to lose all the things that are good and precious to me in my life, I’m going to lose my six figure salary, I’m going to lose the adoration of my community and my principal and my students. And there’s a switch that flips that once we start to develop clarity around our values, and some directions to extend those values and that feel more life giving and more in alignment with our souls. The trade offs become a lot easier to evaluate and to stomach, because we know what they’re opening up for us on the other side, that feels so much better than where we are, you know, I don’t encourage people to, to assume that they have to take a pay cut in order to feel more fulfillment and more joy in their work. But that said, when it’s something that you’re open to, it’s like taking the blinders off to look at all the possibilities, and really better evaluate the playing field of what’s what’s possible. And I’m curious for you in that decision, knowing that you were moving towards love and towards creating a life that you were very excited about. What came up for you when you thought about this, this great professional growth and development opportunity in the role but having to take that pay cut?

John Neral  18:40  

Right? So it’s just a great question. Because being a math person, everything works out, right, two plus two is four, and it’s not five. And I feel really great about myself, right? There’s a reason why two plus two equals four. And that’s it. And so, it was all of these opportunities to look at the tangibles and the intangibles in terms of the move. Right. So when I when I moved in 2010 we were in the throes of a housing crisis. There was and the other thing which I didn’t share was, I was in my seat when I was 41. At the time when I made this move, right so I’m, I’m in the throes of mid career and what I had people, I had someone come up to me who was so angry at my decision for leaving, and they were like you’re throwing it all the way. You’re being stupid. You shouldn’t do this for love and everything. And I just thought, I appreciate your feedback, like as nicely as I could, right. It’s like I appreciate your feedback, but I’m going to do what I want. It was that kind of thing where the the family of origin of the family of choice. We’re all like, we trust that you’re making the best decision but we’re going to Miss you were gonna miss it like it was like we’re not gonna we’re gonna miss you like not seeing you at school every day or we’re not gonna see you with all the other things and stuff like that that I was doing. But the gains outweighed the pains. And and in looking at all of the tangibles and the intangibles, there was there was a status thing for what it’s worth in saying, I went to go work in an administrative role for DC public schools. And and when I came, it was, it was like the last three months that Chancellor Michelle Ray was working for the school system. And so she understandably, was a very controversial but very dynamic figure within DC public schools. I was in a meeting with her once, and it was a lunch and learn I was part of 150 people that sat in that meeting, I would go speak at a national conference, or I would be doing my consultancy work or whatever. And people wanted to know, what was it like working in the nation’s capitol? And what was it like working for DC public schools, and there was this cachet, or this clout about being associated with that system, that there were, there were things in leveling up, that were happening that I didn’t fully understand when I made the move. Because in a classroom, you’re very isolated. You close your door, you do your work, you teach your kids, you get evaluated all that’s great. Working for a larger system, like DC public schools, it was mind blowing. Because there were so many things that I was getting exposed to, I was working with so many different people in different roles in jobs that we didn’t have where I worked. So a student support team, a student behavioral intervention specialist, we had guidance counselors, like that’s who they were. And we’re talking with departments and divisions and networking. And, you know, DC is such an interesting place to be in to work, that these were the things that I would never have had the opportunity. Had I not met my now husband. Right? I DC public schools was not even on my radar. So I go to work for DC public schools, I’m there for 14 months, I survive a reorg. But I miss doing math stuff, I miss doing content. And right down the street was the Office of the State Superintendent of education. So even though DC is not a state, it has a state superintendent. So for some educators going to work for the state superintendent is a pinnacle in your career. And so I pivoted into that. And so now within the scope of literally a year and a half, I’ve gone from being this classroom teacher in a great school district in northern New Jersey. And now I’m an assessment specialist working on math and science content for a State Education Office. The leaps, were all because I was welcoming the opportunities that were there. And I promised myself I was not going to say no, that I was going to step out of my comfort zone when things happened. I was not going to say no, and just be open to welcoming those opportunities.

Lisa Lewis Miller  23:35  

I think that that decision, that kind of galvanization that conviction that I’m not going to say no, I’m going to lean in, I’m going to lean into growth, I’m going to lean into opportunities is incredible. But john, you also chose not to listen to some of the fears, especially the fears that were being projected onto you. I feel like when you were talking earlier in that that moment about how people said, You’re being stupid, you’re throwing this all away, you shouldn’t move for love. What struck me so much about that is how much every single one of us who has gone through making a change in our lives has faced to that kind of a narrative. Sometimes you face that narrative from inside your own brain, that your own brain part of you, there’s a piece of you that is championing the possibilities, the hope the dream that totally gets that the gains outweigh the pain. But there’s another part of your brain that can jump in with all of those kinds of negative self sabotaging hateful kinds of thoughts that can come forward. And some of us when we mean pivots and changes have actually faced that kind of a narrative coming from somebody externally. And it would be really easy to listen, it would be really easy to buy into that. But what struck me so much about your story is that you are able to create a certain amount of mental and emotional buffer and protection to say, you know what this is this person’s baggage. This person is projecting all of their fears and all of their nasty internal narrative onto me. And I don’t have to accept that. I don’t have to own that I don’t have to internalize that as being my own. I can keep leaning into trusting my own gut and my own intuition and my own sense of the life that I want to build. But fighting those fears, to be able to say yes to opportunity and to lean into growth can be really challenging.

John Neral  25:39  

Without question, right, especially when you are a heart centered, professional leader, people pleaser, don’t want to rock the boat, everything’s got to be quote, unquote, perfect, recovering perfectionist, right? All of those kind of things, that it gets to be an opportunity to find your voice and stand up for yourself in terms of saying, I am willing to take this risk, because this is what’s most important to me. And whether it be in life or a be in career, there are all of these pivotal moments that happen, that we make the choice or decisions we believe to be best at the time. Right? So yeah, it was extremely hard hearing from colleagues and close friends who would, you know, want to have their say, to make sure in their opinion that I was really clear in my mind and what was going on and what I was going to do and Is this really the career move you want to take and everything like that. And even when I got to DSA, I had colleagues on my team, who would say to me, do you know what you got yourself into? And I remember, like walking back from coffee with someone, and they were like, do you know what you are getting yourself into? And I was like, that’s such an odd question. Why are you asking me that? And they were like, we’re just worried. Like, we just want to make sure you’re prepared. I said, Oh, absolutely not. I have no idea what I’m getting into. But I know I’m going to handle it. And they were like, Okay, all right. So it is it’s other people’s best intentions, and a times worst projections, that really kind of weigh in in terms of how we get to that place of clarity for us and making the decisions we want to make for our careers.

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:52  

Absolutely. And something I love you just articulated is that you had this quiet but clear sense of self trust. That, yeah, I can’t possibly know everything about what I’ve gotten myself into, I can’t possibly know all the ways in which this is going to be different from my time in the classroom. But I trust myself that I’m going to figure it out. And for so many of us, if you look back on the course of your own life, and your career and the decisions that you’ve made over the years, one of the common threads is that you’ve never not figured it out. We have all always figured it out, it may not have gotten figured out the way that we had intended or hoped or expected. But we all inevitably, eventually land on our feet. And so having that clear sense inside of yourself to then guide you into the instructional coaching supervision and then into working at the state superintendent’s office, probably really well equipped you to be able to face challenges not as a psychological threat or something bringing up all these doubts of oh my gosh, I’ve made the wrong decision. I’m terrible, I need to go back to the classroom, but rather to see them as just the next frontier in your learning and growth.

John Neral  29:13  

Absolutely, I mean, there there is a gift in experience at whatever level you’re at, that allows you to find that balance between listening to the voice inside of your head, and collecting all of the data that’s in front of you. Right, it’s like the person who has that sense that they’re going to be laid off, or there’s changes coming in within the company. And they sense that a few months out. And so they start doing all of the things, quote in the event of unquote, write so it may not happen, but if it does, this is what I’m going to do. And that’s when I think it’s one of the most powerful Powerful gifts and the experiences that we have is that we start seeing the landscape a little bit differently as we start navigating through our careers, both for ourselves, and wherever we’re working to help us make those informed decisions.

Lisa Lewis Miller  30:16  

Yeah, and I think, too, that there’s a certain element of a safety net. Yeah, that comes up as a part of that, too, when you made the move from New Jersey to DC, you had this leave of absence safety net, just in case you needed it. And I think that that’s a really important piece of feeling empowered, to move forward and to be experimental and creative and try things in there, too.

John Neral  30:38  

Absolutely. And I, one of the best experiences I have had in my educational career. And going back to where I was working in New Jersey was that for 10 years, I had served as either a vice president or co president of my education association. And so being in a leadership role within a teacher’s union, there were understandably events and and conversations that I did not want to have. But because of the service in that role, you find ways to find your voice, and to advocate for what you need to be advocating for. And so that meant whether I was dealing with a teacher issue and their local administrator, or for a couple of times, I was leading a negotiations team for a 25 $26 million contract for our, for our education association for the contract for us and for our working conditions, where I’m sitting there at the table opposite the board attorney and the Board of Ed, and we’re having very peaceful and civil conversations, but at times where we needed to fight for what was right for us, you find your voice in those moments. And so I thank you for for acknowledging that and recognizing that, but it those, those things happen, right, because of the, I often say like we’re in this place, because of the totality of our experiences. If I didn’t have those experiences as a union leader, I don’t know if my voice would be as strong as it is, or if my convictions wouldn’t have been as solid to simply go, yeah, I’m gonna figure it out. Like, it’ll all be okay. Like, whatever happens, I’m gonna figure it out, I’m gonna sell my house, I’m gonna move, I’m gonna leave. And if it doesn’t work out, then I’ll figure it out. But honestly, in the back of my mind, it was like, this is gonna work. Because I would rather come from a place of abundance rather than deficit.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:47  

A beautiful mental model to take with you. Any challenge, any decision, any bump in the road. And your your phrasing about we are who we are, where we are, because of the totality of our experiences is so powerful. And in that I think that there’s a certain acknowledgement that you get to shape that you get to choose the things that you’re saying yes to had you not said yes to being involved with the union and leadership and negotiation, it would have deprived you of getting to have that experience to get have that specific opportunity to sit at that specific table and have those particular conversations. So I hope folks who are listening are recognizing that sometimes the decisions that we make purely because we’re interested, purely because we’re curious, purely because it feels like it would nourish our souls. Those decisions become that totality. Those decisions, give you context, give you experiences, give you relationships that can then open future doors and future opportunities to you. But john, I want to come back to your story, because we’re only covering the education piece of it here. And there have been some other pivots along the way, too. So talk to me about state superintendent, you’re in this role. How what are the decision points that led you from there to here in the present moment?

John Neral  34:09  

Yeah, so. So it’s funny, I had spent 14 years in New Jersey, I spent 14 years, 14 months at DC public schools. I spent 14 months at the state superintendent’s office and I pivoted to take a job with a nonprofit educational assessment company in DC. And and again, it was a move to go work on content. And so basically what I was doing was I was writing assessment items for various end of the year state tests, those dreaded end of the year tests that kids have to take and everything like that. And and I loved it. I was working with just a dynamic group of people superintelligent, great work, learning, a lot of technical things and everything like that. I was on the job three months, and my director walked into my office and close to my door. And I thought, God, I’m getting fired. Like, I just, I didn’t like I, my, my, my self image what was going on like I just thought getting fired. And she knew me well enough that she sat down and she goes, you’re doing great work, you’re fine. And I was like, Okay, thanks, what do we got to talk about. And in the scope of that hour long conversation, she revealed to me that the reason why she hired me was not solely for my content expertise. But because of my experience leading and building teams, and helping to repair teams and my coaching background. And she said, I’m just over swamp swamped and overwhelmed. And I need someone to help me with the day to day operations of the team, when you do that role for me. And I immediately accepted and I moved into this role, basically leading a team of 28 people who were working on multimillion dollar contracts, and just impacting millions of kids every year. And at the same time, was helping them with all of the team dynamics, the professional development piece, and there was an element of coaching that I was using, because as you build relationships with people, and they start trusting you, they come to you. And so my job was just to help them figure out what they wanted to do. There were some people who came where they were trying to chart a path for career development within the company. There were others where this was clearly a bridge job on something else. There were others where they were just frustrated, and they were ready to go. And so I found myself doing a lot of coaching in this role. And so what I was quickly learning was that quote, unquote, corporate coaching or career coaching in that respect was very different than instructional coaching. So being the educator and the lifelong learner in May, I started looking for coaching certification programs. And I found AIPAC, the Institute for professional excellence in coaching, and got certified through them and had every intention of building a coaching program for this division. And when I went to go talk to my vice president that day, after we had had a couple of reorg eggs, and I didn’t land particularly well on the second one. And I looked at her and I said, I need to ask you about my career path here. And I just want to know if I’m accurate. Can I ask you, she’s like, yeah, sure, go ahead. And I said,

John Neral  37:47  

The way I see it, at best, my career path here is horizontal. And while I’m not risk of getting fired, or laid off today, the truth of the matter is, is that I’m probably not getting promoted, getting a raise or getting a bonus. And I’m kind of just left in this reorg, where I’m at. And I said, I know I’m doing good work. And I know it’s appreciated. I just don’t see a path upward from here. Am I right? And to your point earlier, Lisa, when we ask for feedback, we have to be prepared to receive it. And my VP looked at me and she goes, you’re really smart. She’s like, I’ve tried, they just don’t see all of the things that you do. And, and it was a great place to work. And I’m very grateful for the five years I had there. But that conversation was a combination of actions that helped me make the decision, which was, I think, I want to coach full time because I can have more impact externally than I can internally. And so I talked with Richard about it. And we kind of worked out all of the money details and everything like that, in terms of what this was all going to look like. Because being in a marriage, it wasn’t a sole decision, I needed to make sure I had his support, and he was on board. And he is I am so grateful and blessed in so many ways. And about five weeks after that conversation with my VP I respectfully resigned. And I did it with a lot of gratitude, because I said, I clearly know what I am called to do right now. And if I don’t do this right now, I am going to hate coming into work every day. And I didn’t want that. So that was that was such another pivotal moment. Because again, it was I was doing great work. And then there’s a shift. And and sometimes the shifts are outside of your control as we’ve discussed. And I thought Look, I get to do I get to choose. I get to do Do what I want to do. And if there’s a viable way for me to do this, then we might as well make a shot at it. And I’m just really grateful that they did

Lisa Lewis Miller  40:10  

the partnership element and making sure that your partner’s on board is such an important piece of it. For all of us, even if you’re not in a long term relationship, that the people in your life who care about you and love you and who you might need to ask for some support if things go sideways on your team. And this is incredibly important. But john, the thing that strikes me about your story is that you are so clear on your emotional and energetic experience of work, that you knew that if you just hung out in this very lateral horizontal space, that you were going to become more and more resentful and more and more frustrated, and that you wanted to head that off, rather than getting two years into that, and being, you know, like a furrowed brow every single day at work. And give yourself this space and take the risk to try to move into what’s next.

John Neral  41:00  

Right and it becomes this, I often describe it as a values conflict. Right. So I was in a situation where I believed I could have walked into the office. Remember the days we walked into the office, walked into the office, closed my door, did my work. And while I was being paid by the company, worked on my own business at the same time. And that’s called double dipping. And that’s ethically wrong. And I started questioning some of those things. And I thought that’s not how I want to show up. That’s not how I want to do this. This isn’t This isn’t fair to the company. This isn’t fair to me. So let’s have the intentional conversation, figure out what this is. And, you know, there were there were times in the couple of reorg. It wasn’t easy. I often say Lisa, my career path has been messy. And I’m okay with it. Right. And and there were there were times leading up to it, where I would drive home and I would have these thoughts like, what if I just didn’t go back into work tomorrow? What if I just quit the next day, or I’m not putting up with this. And the not the day that I quit. And I had moved everything out of my office and I came home, we were having dinner. And Richard looked at me and he said, I promised myself, I was never going to tell you to quit your job. Because I saw you needed to make this decision on your own. And I saw how conflicted you were with all of the things going on. He said but I’m going to tell you there were three times I came really close. And and I just thought you know, how great is it that you have someone who does have your back who supports and gets you and, and kind of wants what’s best. And through the course of our relationship we’ve we’ve pivoted in those roles, roles for each other and how things have progressed for both of us professionally, but but being clear about our values, and how we show up to honor them on a day to day basis, I firmly believe will always guide us on the path where we need to go. Because where we are right now is exactly where we’re supposed to be.

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:20  

What beautiful and awesome support that is and what a cool dynamic to have inside of your partnership. I know it can be really tricky to understand how to best support and love on and and coach sometimes your partner when you’re in this long term romantic relationship together and you gotta go to bed next to one another, and you’re gonna wake up next to one another, and it can feel challenging to navigate that but how cool that he had such faith in you and saw the bigger picture to say, I’m gonna bite my tongue here. But man Oh, man, this, this could be a really good thing.

John Neral  44:00  

Absolutely.

Lisa Lewis Miller  44:02  

So fast forward me into into what was next? What did the next era look like?

John Neral  44:09  

Yes. So when I when I launched my business full time, it was all about helping professionals create their next advancement opportunity and whatever that looked like. And and over the course of several years as we get better at what we do and we fine tune where we niche and we figure all that out and everything. Where I have found that sweet spot for me is particularly helping mid career professionals, the people who have had these kind of moments where they are questioning their value and their impact and whatever is next. But more specifically. It’s that because life happens. Oftentimes the clients I work with, there’s there’s a lot of other things that are going on for them. Right It might be Taking care of aging parents, it might be dealing with kids and with family, it might be growing a side hustle or a side business, whatever that may be. And so the thought of navigating that career transition quickly becomes overwhelming for them. Because now all of a sudden, it’s all of the things like the resume, the LinkedIn, the networking and the interviewing on top of, what do I really want to do right now? It’s that that clarity component, you you do so well, right. It’s a clarity component about, hey, let me let me help you get really specific about who you want to help. And what you want to help them do specifically, and why that work is important to you. And then helping them kind of create what I like to refer to as a roadmap or a GPS, to help them get from where they are to where they want to be. Because the truth of the matter is, we spend a lot of time at work. And the thoughts about retiring at 55, or 62, aren’t always plausible for everybody now, especially in what we have seen, just even as a result of the last year in how the pandemic has dramatically impacted our economy and how industries have shifted. And so mid career can look very different for people. The Office of Personnel Management defines mid career as someone who has 10 years of work experience after graduation be at either high school or college. So if we think about that traditional route, you graduate college a 21, or 22, by definition, you could be mid career at 3132. If you think about career in thirds, and you think okay, I’m going to work from 20 till I’m 70. Right now, mid career looks a little bit different when we break that down into thirds. But it’s also I find, it’s about mindset. It’s about the role, the work that you’re doing, the role that you’re in, and how you identify and see yourself in that role, because of how you are playing in the professional landscape. So it isn’t always about age, it isn’t always about experience. But it certainly can be. But it’s really about helping them figure out how best to navigate mid career, gracefully and intentionally and to show up in a way that is authentically best for them.

Lisa Lewis Miller  47:31  

And I think everybody mid career aspires and strives for that they want to be navigating this intentionally, gracefully, purposefully, in a way that’s protecting their energy and not creating trade offs that are going to be unsustainable for the life that they want to have. What do you feel like is the biggest piece of advice that you would give to somebody who is feeling like they’re not navigating mid career with that sense of of grace, in terms of recalibrating that inner GPS.

John Neral  48:08  

So what what I would say to them is how you show up in matters, and how you show up day in and day out to do the quality work that you’re doing. I like to define showing up in terms of six very specific strategies. So it’s about and I do this in a way because it’s like when people come in and they interview and they say you need to hire me because I’m a great team player. And my answer was always like, I don’t know, if you play on a team the same way I do. So let’s clear that up. Right. And so showing up obviously is about the energy we bring to the situations. But I like to think of showing up as how we set ground rules, have intentional conversations on where we are welcome new opportunities, use your genius, and protect and promote your brand. And I believe if we look at the last two specifically, if we think about our genius, what is the stuff that we’re really, really good at? I was a really good mathematics teacher, my department, my coordinator, my building coordinator, and district coordinator. He said to me, Look, he goes you’re really good at what you do. He said, God, God forbid you walk out of this building and get hit by a bus. He goes we’re all going to be sad about it. But I’m going to need to put someone in your shoes to do the job. So you are replaceable but our genius is what we bring that makes us stand out it is that energy it is that relationships that we build with people that that makes us so good at what we do. So if we can focus on our genius, and if we can focus on our brand, right so love them or hate them Jeff Bezos says our brand is what people say about us when we’re not in the room. Get really clear about your brand. What people what comes up for people when they hear your Name. And if that brand doesn’t represent who you are and what you do, it is your responsibility to clean that up and get that brand recognition for yourself professionally in a way that is going to best position you for whatever opportunities come next.

Lisa Lewis Miller  50:19  

Oh, john, that’s so good. And if somebody’s listening to this, and thinking that they want to get more information about this idea of being responsible for an owning your brand, even when other people are becoming stewards of it, there’s a great episode of the Career Clarity Show with Brittany Cole, that we’ll link to in the show notes for today. That is a fabulous extension of that topic, filling up a whole podcast episode.

John Neral  50:42  

Awesome.

Lisa Lewis Miller  50:44  

Well, john, this has been such such a lovely conversation. It’s been so illuminating on some of the mindsets that set you up for success. The willingness to be courageous in the face of vulnerability, creating strategic safety nets for yourself, making sure that you’re surrounded by supportive and credible people, and leaning into high growth opportunities and saying yes, and seeing the kinds of doors that they open for, for you and for your career. So if somebody’s listening to this, and they’ve been loving hearing all of these lessons and loving hearing about your perspective and want more of it, or they want to get their hands on your book show up? Where should they go.

John Neral  51:31  

So thanks so much, Lisa. And I’ve truly enjoyed our time together. So if people do want to follow up with me, there’s a few different ways obviously, you can go to my website at john narrow.com. John with an H and then Neral. Certainly connect with me on LinkedIn, you can follow me on Facebook and Instagram at john narrow coaching, you can find show up six strategies to lead a more energetic and impactful career on Amazon. Talk about accountability. I am hoping by the time this podcast drops, my second book will be available. title is still to be determined, but it will be somewhere around mid career GPS type stuff, and then certainly invite people to check out the mid career GPS podcast wherever you listen as well.

Lisa Lewis Miller  52:20  

I love it. Well, john, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show and sharing your brilliance today.

John Neral  52:26  

Well, Lisa, thanks so much for having me. And just keep up the great work. I appreciate you.

Lisa Lewis Miller  52:37  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Get Career Clarity: Finally Find the Work That Fits Your Values and :ifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.