153: Communication at Work with Eloise Eonnet

Hello and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show! Jenn Smith here with an episode all about communication, which in its most basic form is giving and receiving information. But I will tell you, as a former HR leader, that most situations that ever made it to my office were very complex. In my opinion, breakdowns in communication is one of the most complex and overlooked pieces of work.

This is why I’m so excited to have our guest, Eloise Eonnet. Over the last 10 years, she founded and runs Eloquence Coaching, which is a communication coaching service, enabling professional growth and personal empowerment through strategic storytelling and communication delivery skills. 

Show Notes:

• Connect with Eloise
• Eloquence Coaching
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career.

Jenn Smith  0:30  

Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Jenn Smith. Today’s episode is all about communication, which in its most basic form is giving and receiving information. But I will tell you, as a former HR leader, most situations are complex that ever made it to my office where because of some kind of breakdown in communication, in my opinion, it’s one of the most complex and overlooked pieces of work, which is why I’m so excited to have our guest, Eloise AOMEI, founder of eliquids coaching. Eloise and I met when she stepped into the role as director of coach connect on the Muse dot coms coaching hub, which impacts over 18,000 professionals in their career. And in my humble opinion, it is one of the go to sites for all things career. And along with being the director of coach connect on the muse, Eloise is a Communication Coach, founder and program director. Over the last 10 years she found founded and runs eloquence coaching, which is a communication coaching service, enabling professional growth and personal empowerment through strategic storytelling and communication delivery skills. And fun fact, Eloise also helps to run a family cider, hard cider business in France, which is so cool. And that’s where she’s from. So we’re so excited to have you today. Eloise, welcome to the show.

Eloise Eonnet  2:10  

Thank you, Jenn. So happy to be here. So let’s start.

Jenn Smith  2:14  

I’m curious to hear about your story. So I’d love for you to share a little bit more about your path to communication coaching.

Eloise Eonnet  2:22  

Gladly, yes. You mentioned a few minutes ago or a few seconds ago, actually that I run a family cider business in France. So I came to New York, from France when I was 18. And and I went to school in New York City. And something that immediately struck me was that I was a fish out of water with regards to the culture and communication style of my peers. And it’s something that made me feel very uncomfortable because I was 18 and young and uncomfortable. But also it really got me interested in what are communication styles? And how do we communicate? How do we actually share information and feel comfortable in our bodies doing so. And at Barnard where I went to college, there was a program called speaking fellows, which was an amazing program that taught students how to teach their peers to communicate, mostly around the work that they were doing. So presenting their work talking about their work within the school environment. So I quickly joined that. And by that by the time that I graduated, I had coached hundreds and hundreds of students. And so that’s really what struck my my interest in in communication is really this kind of fish out of water experience of coming into new culture and seeing clearly in front of me, the different styles that I maybe hadn’t noticed in France, given that it was just normal to me. And ever since I’ve been coaching in one way or another.

Jenn Smith  3:50  

Wow, that’s such an interesting story. And to relate that back to you know, such a profound personal experience of coming to New York, from France and going to college, you know, your first year at college is just very profound in itself, let alone being from a different country and having to understand how to communicate and, and what a great thing that Barnard College had that program that you could step into, and just kind of get acclimated and then become an expert and coaching and helping others. I love it. And I love when careers I can’t help but say this I love when careers tie back to a personal story. It just makes what you do so much more impactful, you know, every single day. So thanks for sharing that. I love it. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about eloquence coaching and kind of the mission or the origin of how this came about.

Eloise Eonnet  4:41  

Absolutely. So it grew from my experience at Barnard. I took a while it took a while to really become what it is today. Given that my experience coaching was really geared towards higher education at the beginning. So I took a little bit of time to get my footing within the corporate world within I’m working with individuals who are career driven. But really, what I decided I wanted to do was was create a place, whether it’s a coaching situation like this, or a group coaching, group training, where people can work on actionable tools that will give them the assurance that whenever they speak, whether it’s a one on one, whether it’s a meeting, whether it’s a two room of 1000 people, that they can speak with purpose, and they actually feel that. So that’s really what I’m trying to do with eloquence is giving people that assurance that they can speak with purpose. Wow. Oh, yeah, go

Jenn Smith  5:37  

ahead, please. I was just gonna say how powerful of a tool that is, you know, in the workplace and outside of the workplace, frankly,

Eloise Eonnet  5:46  

for sure. Because because when you have that purpose, when you have that confidence in yourself, that stems, it’s really a physical first a physical and vocal feeling. And then your brain follows, it really gives you agency in the decisions that you make in the relationships that you build in the in the, in the directions that you go down. When you when you really have those tools at your disposal, all of those things happen much more smoothly.

Jenn Smith  6:11  

Right. And I feel like so many times we think about communication, as the words, and not so much as all of the other things that come along with it. And you know, the confidence that you that is instilled with you, along with the words is really where communication, I think the rubber meets the road and it comes together. So nice, I love it. Well, maybe at the end, you can share a little bit more, if you have any programs or one on one coaching or anything that you can share with our listeners, I would be interested to hear about that. So okay, so let’s start. So you had kind of alluded to different types of communication a little bit in that last response there. So talk to us about the different types of communication that are out there and break that down a little bit more.

Eloise Eonnet  6:56  

Of course, rather than thinking about the circumstances, so are you giving a presentation? Are you leading a meeting, are you having a one on one, I like to think about it as two main pillars of communication, and that can be adapted to whatever situation you’re in. So for example, one is nonverbal communication skills. So that’s physical and vocal delivery skills. And then the next pillar that I that I like to work on is what I call strategic storytelling. And that is structures, language approaches that you use as far as the content that you’re sharing. So if I were to break that down, strategic storytelling first is really an outcome oriented method that helps you really gain clarity on your objectives. And first, so that you can then share that information in a driven way, and really structure your speech so that no matter what context you’re in, you can have communication, you can have relationships, where you’re sharing your goals and your ambitions, and really moving the needle for yourself. So that’s one piece. And the next really is the way you speak. So we’ve touched upon this a few times, now we’re going to dive into it more, but it’s, it’s focusing in on your body and how it can support your brain to better communicate, think more clearly, react, be in the moments and and really just create that that strong support. So it’s a bunch of different skills. And I have what I call the presentation, skill skills playbook presentation skills playbook. And it is the physical and vocal delivery skills that that you can master in order to have all the tools that you need, depending on the situation that you’re in, to use to engage with others.

Jenn Smith  8:43  

And I feel like there is, you know, ensuring that expectations are clear in the communication and thinking about like, what do you want the audience to take away is such a critical piece of this, that a lot of people don’t think about, and they just start talking, and they’re talking and they don’t really think about what they want the audience to know or feel or do at the end of whatever they’re saying. And that clear takeaway can sometimes get lost in that translation because of that. So it’s important, I feel like to keep that in mind, you know, keep that structure and that main objective in mind, regardless of if it’s a one on one conversation, where you’re giving and receiving feedback, or like you said, it’s a presentation in front of 1000 people, it’s a really important aspect of it. So, so since your expertise is in verbal communications, you know, particularly at work, what are some tips that you could share with our listeners about both of the physical aspects of communication and the

Eloise Eonnet  9:40  

vocal skills? Yes. So first, it’s knowing yourself is the first where you have to start the first thing you have to do so what I always say is, we all have phones handy these days or a computer with an easy software that you can use to record yourself. Watch yourself, record yourself, even if it’s just during a meeting. And you’re you’re you know, you have your air pods in or your your earbuds in and you’re not, you’re not recording everybody else, you’re just recording yourself. Watch yourself, what do you see? What do you first like, celebrate those things? What’s working for you? And then say to yourself, Okay, well, what’s getting in my way? And it’s not just what you see, but remembering how you felt, when you were presenting that? Did I feel awkward in that moment that I what was happening for me there? And then what did it look like from the other side? First, you might be really surprised that in fact, you look a lot better than you felt. So that’s a really good place to start as well. But really, it’s about identifying what is getting in your way. So is it? Did you feel like your gestures were getting in your way of your face and not creating clarity, but rather making out of a mess? Or were you not making eye contact at all? Or did your face actually look really, really stiff, and you weren’t letting us know how you felt about the information that you were sharing. And once you identify what it is that you that you see, that perhaps needs a little bit of work, then it’s just about play. It’s about playing around with it, taking risks, being gentle on yourself, because these are habits that we need to first break down and then rebuild. And it takes time. So I always say focus on one thing, do you, for example, use a lot of filler words. And you really don’t like those filler words, you really feel like they get in your way of sounding concise and clear and driven, then just focus on that one thing and give yourself time, I always say don’t wait for two days before the presentation to make sure that you’re not saying like an every three words, start three months before. So the best thing to do to start is now is today. So that you can slowly over time, you know, first figure out what those skills are identify them, and choose to work on one and then maybe two of them in the long run and start changing those habits.

Jenn Smith  11:51  

It’s so important to notice how you feel, I love that you mentioned that. Because it makes a difference. You know that energy that you’re giving off in whatever you’re trying to portray to the other person or other people make such a difference. And I see this a lot in interviews, you know, when you’re working with someone with interview coaching, or, you know, when I was in HR interviewing people that, you know, they’re nervous, they’re feeling like a spotlights on them. And you can tell when people have actually practice and understand what’s coming across and feel really good about what they’re saying, versus when they don’t, and they come across really robotic, and, you know, their points are aren’t getting across, because they are so nervous. And so you know, the feeling and the playing go hand in hand in that situation as well.

Eloise Eonnet  12:39  

100%. And what I’ll say there is those nerves, that nervous reaction, it’s a physical reaction, it might stem in our brains of Oh, no, this is a scary situation. And but it’s your body that’s reacting and getting in your way. So if I start to sweat, or if I feel like my throat is getting tight, or if I am shaking, my hands or feet, or legs are shaking, those are physical reactions. And so the best tools to address that are also physical things, vocal things. So if you on your own time, outside of feeling those high pressure moments of being put on the spot interview, say the best thing that you’ve ever said in your entire life so that you can get the job right, there’s we’ve put so much pressure on ourselves, if we can figure out what it feels like to feel empowered to sit perhaps in a different way to use the gesture so that when you have that energy during a high stakes interview, you actually can use that that energy to make a movement with your arms and actually throw that energy out into the space rather than holding it and closing yourself down. It’s really important to start understanding what that feels like when it feels great so that when you feel those nerves coming in, you can more easily tap into that those physical tools that you’ve built, to feel that confidence and balance that out not to say that it’ll get rid of the nerves, but it’ll challenge it’ll channel the nervous energy into something that’s purposeful, and strong and powerful for you. And you’re much more likely to be clear, right? As you said, you know, instead of stumbling or sounding robotic, you’re much more likely to push that energy out towards the other person and have a conversation. Yeah,

Jenn Smith  14:14  

for sure. And I always think you know, the recommendation is always to practice your stories, practice your stories, practice your stories, you know, whether you’re going into an interview or into a conversation but I love the added element of actually recording and watching yourself to see how you feel when you’re watching yourself and I know a lot of people like cringe when at the thought of listening or watching themselves but gosh, you can learn so much you know and even if you you know watching yourself you try to separate your own self from watching yourself I know that sounds a little bit weird but just kind of like take you out of it or pretend you’re watching you know your friend or co worker and you know kind of take that criticism I guess out of it and be able to watch it with an Objective Mind you can probably learn a ton And then you know how you would want to adjust or reframe or change things in the, you know, in the next conversation. So I think that’s a great, a great tip. I always read out loud, I always practice and read out loud. But I don’t record it. So I might have to take that one. Take that forward, for sure. Now, you mentioned the arms and the eyes and like the filler words, do you have any tips or strategies around helping us remain clear and concise in our communications?

Eloise Eonnet  15:32  

Absolutely. There are many ways that I could answer this question. And it might, depending on the answer that I could give, it might resonate better with different audience members listening to this. But one really important thing in order to be clear and driven is to really understand first the context for the conversation, and then understand what the objectives are that you have. So we’re moving away from physical and physical and vocal delivery skills. Right now I’m moving towards strategic storytelling. But whether it’s a one on one with your boss, or a meeting with external partners, or whatever the situation might be, first creating clarity with yourself of what has happened up until now. And what I mean by context is, what is the background? What’s the important information that precedes this meeting or conversation? What is the relevance of this, of what of what happened before this that is, is necessitating this meeting to happen? And when what’s the big picture? What’s the broader information about what we’re going to talk about today in this conversation that I need to remember, and having really strong clarity on that context? What it does is that it builds confidence internally, I’m like, okay, great. This is what is leading up to this moment. And it’s important for me to remember no, but it also creates clarity for yourself and alignment with the other people on the call. So that’s one piece to really create that that clarity for yourself. And then it’s it’s the objectives. It’s the objectives are what what is my objective in this 20 minute meeting with this other person I’m working with? What do I want to accomplish as a result of this meeting? It’s not what do I want them to understand? It’s not that it’s actually what do I What are the next steps that I want to happen as a result of having this conversation or leading this meeting or giving this presentation. And if we can clarify both the context and the objectives for ourselves, we’re going to actually have this buoy that’s holding us up for giving us relevance, and this conversation relevance, and then also helping us understand where we want to land as a result of this meeting. So that that’s one really important thing that I would say, we don’t take the time to do especially in lower stakes, presentations meetings. But what I’d say to myself is, next time you go into a meeting, it’s probably later today, you have a phone call with someone said yourself, what’s the context for this conversation, and what’s the objective of this conversation. And if you can clear that, clarify that for yourself, you’re going to feel way more in charge and driven in that conversation than you would if you didn’t do

Jenn Smith  18:05  

that work. This makes me think, think of a conversation at work around if you’re a manager, if you have to give constructive criticism, and you’re going into that conversation and you’re just winging it, it’s probably not going to come across in the way that you had intended. But if you put a little bit of thought into what you want the person to do next, and what you want the person to take away and how you even want the person to feel, I think that that, you know, really makes sense, in a situation like that obviously makes sense, if you’re giving a big presentation or something like that, but I can, I can see this happening, a lot of managers kind of go into those conversations, and just don’t plan ahead or don’t really think about what they’re going to say. And that’s really where a big breakdown can happen. And it can really hurt someone’s self esteem and you know, so many different aspects of work if you don’t put the thought into it ahead of time. So great, great ideas there. And another thought that came to mind when you were talking is and I think you had mentioned this previously, too, is around doing what’s comfortable for you. And so, you know, that’s going to make the communication and the energy of the conversation, you know, a lot more effective. And this makes me think of, you know, there’s different ways to share information, you know, so for me personally, I really like organic one on one conversations, I’ve had coworkers that like, you know, big slash, you know, kind of events and big splash meetings and, you know, like, you know, just kind of have a party with a with a with a conversation versus you know, my style is a lot different. So, I think it’s really to thinking about what’s what’s most comfortable for you and how you’re going to get that message across.

Eloise Eonnet  19:44  

Absolutely. And then and then hopefully also identifying who’s in front of you and what their style is. So that you can also adapt and and really engage in conversation with that person in a way that they can hear the information and, and run with it so that you’re not just speaking to a wall. I love that you talked about those different styles of how people communicate differently and how, where they sit as far as being comfortable. And it kind of goes both ways for both parties, right? If there’s a difference there, it’s about adapting to each other as well. And really listening in that in that moment, so that you’re making sure that everything’s blending.

Jenn Smith  20:16  

That makes me think of all the different learning styles like adult learning styles, and how some people are visual. And some people learn from listening. And some people learn more from doing and oh my gosh, and when you think of like the complexity of a huge organization, and the multiple layers and trying to communicate around the entire globe, you start to think of the complexities of the different audiences and knowing your audience. And as an organization trying to disseminate one, you know, one piece of information to so many people is so complicated, and it doesn’t take just one conversation, multiple conversations, there’s written, there’s visual, there’s all forms of communication, to make sure that one message is heard. So very, very complicated. So since a lot of our listeners are job seekers, and out there in the world of job changing specific to interviews, talk to us about some top tips that might help a job seeker feel comfortable, and you know, kind of going into their interview, feeling like they’re just going to ace it and move on to the next step.

Eloise Eonnet  21:24  

Oh, my gosh, so many tips and tricks here, I think that the first thing is just know your value, be really clear on the value that you bring. Because when the people on the other side, understand that value, that’s when they make the hiring decision. And so you have to start there. So what you know, here’s what I always said, say, you know, frame this for people, it’s your past experience is really important to everything that you’ve done that the you know, walking me through your resume, etc. But really, you should be thinking about that as the context to the conversation that you’re having today and to your objectives, right, going back to what we said before your objectives of the conversation, your objective really should be for them to understand the skill sets that you bring to the table, the competencies that you’ve developed. And then really important, because they cannot outsource these are your personality traits, and the values that drive your work. So it’s becoming super, super clear on what those things are. Because your goal in the interview should be for them to understand those things about you. The stories that you tell the really fancy answers that you give, all of that is just helping them understand these core things about you. So start with that find clarity out, make a list, find clarity on what those skills, competencies, personality traits, and values are, that make you really, really good for this position. And starting with that clarity is going to put you in the driver’s seat. Now you have now you have a game plan, regardless of the questions that are being asked, you know that they need to understand these specific things about you. And the next piece to this is make sure that you are talking about these skills and competencies in a way that is going to let the audience in and have them really understand the impact that you have. So it’s not about saying I’m a really good communicator, and have project management skills. Great. That’s wonderful that you know, what you bring to the table. What’s really important is to share how you do these things. What does it look like for you to communicate really effectively with your colleagues? Do you listen? Do you understand what their objectives and priorities are, and then you adapt the way that you share information to that, for example. So when you share information in that way, then you’re letting me in, you’re giving me a sneak peek into what it’s like for Eloise to work on a team. And that’s when I start to trust you as an interviewer. And then the third thing, right, so we talked about what you do, right? I am a good communicator, how I do it, finding that language, practicing that language to share how you do these things. And then finally, it’s why do you do what you do? What is the impact? What is the results, and if you can tell me that it helps you build strong relationships, it creates alignment across a project it etc. That’s what I understand the value that you create. And that’s when I make the hire. Really high level plan, figure out what you bring to the table then figure out how to talk about how you do those things. And then also find the language for why you do those things the impact that you bring, because if you don’t share that the interviewer will not understand the value that you bring fully.

Jenn Smith  24:31  

One of the things that I think folks make the biggest mistake with with interviews is talking in generics just like what you said so I’m a great project manager and I have good communication skills. Okay, so what tell us how you know how you say something and how you tell that story is more important than what you’re actually saying? And bringing that you know, bringing that why into those stories and into that how is so important people want to hire humans. If they want to hire stories, storytelling is so powerful, they don’t want to hire robots, we have enough robots doing all the things in our work today, we don’t need to hire any more robots, we want to hire the human, we want to know about the stories. So, you know, it’s really important. And I think, you know, we kind of mentioned a little bit around, you know, kind of tone and how you, you know, present yourself, I think that’s another piece within the interview process, that’s super important and kind of mirroring the tone of the organization that you’re interviewing with, or that you’re talking with, you know, different organizations are gonna have different tones. Like, for example, we could take the muse, you know, a pretty young hip organization, and, and then you have a more formal organization, like maybe a Deloitte Consulting, you know, different tones, you know, different appearances, different personalities. And so you want to make sure you understand the tone of the organization. And, of course, you don’t want to adjust your own personality. But if you feel like you’re going to be a fit for that organization, you want to make sure that you’re, you know, kind of speaking the language or the tone of the company.

Eloise Eonnet  26:03  

Absolutely. And for me, that starts with the answer to tell me about yourself, we tend to want to rely on formulas, and what you know, walk through these specific steps. And what that does, it’s great, it gives you structure and structure is really, really important to make sure that you’re checking off all the boxes. But if you’re interviewing for the muse, for example, hip, you know, one of their one of their values, or one of our values of the Muse is no assholes. Pardon my French. But that’s just it’s really one of our values, and we put it out there. And that’s something that’s really important. So a company like that you kind of say to yourself, Okay, cool. So that’s the vibe. So how would they want me to talk about myself? What what, what kind of energy can I bring at the beginning of this interview to set the tone that matches the organization’s versus a Deloitte, as you said, which is going to be much more formal and structured, and they’re going to not expect as much creativity in the person’s approach when they’re introducing themselves? And so taking that time, when you’re preparing the answers to your questions, starting from that first one, to really engaged with the culture, and the people in front of you, is really, really important.

Jenn Smith  27:11  

I agree. And you know, it’s okay to bring notes, like if you are nervous, and you’re, you know, approaching a job interview, and you, you know, maybe you have a tendency to ramble, or maybe you don’t know how to showcase your personality, like Britain notes, it’s okay to have notes and to jot things down and to, you know, if that’s gonna make you feel more comfortable, and be able to kind of set the tone and bring your own energy and personality, then do it, that’s totally fine. And okay, so

Eloise Eonnet  27:35  

absolutely, absolutely. And I always say, you know, set the tone at the beginning, as far as those rules as well, if you really need that pen, and that paper, and it’s a crutch for you to so that when you’re you’re put on the spot, and you don’t know what to say, you can then go down to your net, your notepad and write something down, that is totally fine. Just show them the pen of the beginning. You know, if you’re on Zoom, or whatever google google meets, right, you can just show the pen and say, by the way, I’m going to be taking some notes during our conversation today. You don’t have to ask for permission, you don’t need to you just let them know, show them the pen so that every time they see you go down and write, they’re kept in the loop as well. So that’s little tips for video, video conferencing, right? Because I can’t see your desk I can, I can look my face up as high as possible. Look around, I’m not going to see past the screen, right? So. So engage with people at the beginning and set those rules for yourself like you would in any other meeting. There’s a there’s a sensation that we have or this this preconception that we have that the interviews are completely in charge. They have the questions, they set the tone, they everything. I fully disagree with that they will they will gain respect for you if you can come in and meet them halfway and help everyone at the interview table or interviews zoom call be successful. And so if if setting up those rules for yourself at the beginning is going to be helpful. You should absolutely do that. Yes, for sure. And

Jenn Smith  28:57  

I always say that you should be as a job seeker, you should be interviewing the company as much as they’re interviewing you for sure. It should be a 5050. And my favorite interviews were always interviews that turned into conversations, they turn into a conversation. It’s not a you know, performance with a spotlight on you or anything like that. And if you’re feeling that way in a caught in an interview conversation, it’s probably a red flag that that company might not be a good fit and to continue on. It’s not worth your time and energy. So love the tip around, you know, mentioning that you’re going to be taking notes that kind of leads into my next question for you, which is around nonverbal communications, which sometimes your body language can communicate even stronger than the words that you’re actually speaking. So talk to us a little bit about body language and communications and why this is important.

Eloise Eonnet  29:51  

My golden rule is spend as much time on how you will say something, then on what you will say Because I can tell you the same information twice and just change my body language and my tone, for example, and you’re going to understand me as either a confident contributor, or someone who is hesitant, lacks vision, unsure of themselves. And it really is just a switch of posture gestures, do I up talk? Do I? Am I asking questions all the time, as I’m speaking? Am I not making eye contact? Am I speaking with really low volume and that you can’t hear me very well. And I sound really meek, right? All of those things contribute to the way that you understood and so here’s, here’s, here’s, here’s the tip. It’s don’t write anything down. When you write things down, first of all, you get stuck in written language. And, and I mean, I’m from France, right. And I and I’m French American, so I speak English perfectly without hesitation. So I’m very lucky, but but I can see my friends in France who speak English. And they’ve learned from written language, and so they sound a little awkward. The same things happens to us. When we write answers out, and we write content out in written language, and then try to learn it, we get stuck in that in that language, and that the formulation of our words. So first of all, that’s a bad thing about writing things down. But but also our bodies are natural communicators. You spoke earlier, Jen about how an interview is actually just a conversation. And if you approach it in kind of conversational tone, and use the skill sets that you have in your body, and in your voice to build that content, you’re setting yourself up for success. And so your original question was, you know, what are some things that you can do really? Or how does how does your you know, what are tips? Let me take that, again. Your question was really about tips for nonverbal communication. So really, it’s start at the beginning, by just speaking out loud, when you’re preparing a presentation, when you have a large ask, I want to raise? Can you actually start by speaking that out loud by yourself in your bedroom, in your office, at home office, in your office, wherever you are, and just see what that feels like? What that sounds like? And what you’ll notice is, first of all, the clarity of the question will come very easily if you just repeat it a few times. But you’ll also notice that your body is supporting you in creating that that ask. So you know, can you use your gestures? Or can you focus your eye contact in one place, but you say it, how does that change the way you feel? And how does that change the way you say?

Jenn Smith  32:36  

Yes, nonverbals are a big deal. And I go back to just this thing that I talked to someone last week about with phone interviews, so somebody has an upcoming phone interview, and I tell people, even though it’s over the phone, your nonverbals are still going to come across smiling, they will hear your say it’s such a big deal. And especially when you’re nervous in an interview, whether it’s you know, face to face, over WebEx or over the phone, just smiling is going to bring a different energy, it’s going to bring an inviting energy, it’s going to you know, invite conversation, it’s it’s really a big deal, you know, a big piece of body language and in the job interview, quite frankly. So along with, you know, posture and facial expressions and hand movements, all of these things are going to help your your story come across a lot stronger. So eye contact is a big one too. And this kind of leads me I would love to kind of bring this into a conversation around virtual interviews, obviously, those are a thing, they will continue to be a thing. Eye contact is a big piece of nonverbal communication. But it can be a little bit tricky over the airwaves. So talk to us a little bit about that.

Eloise Eonnet  33:54  

For me, great communication skills are the same regardless of the context. So in person board meetings, or a large stage with an audience of 1000 people or one on one conversations in person or over zoom. Really, it’s about learning the skills and then adapting them to the size of the space and to the audience that you’re speaking to. So for eye contact, for example, the most basic part is being able to look into somebody’s eyes and hold that conversation and make that connection. Once you can do that, then it’s adapting it to the various situations. So for example, zoom. And let’s say a board meeting in person around a table with six people. You want to use eye contact in slightly different ways, though the basic skill set remains of that connection with that other person. So on Zoom, how would you adapt it? We’ve all read the articles over the past two years of working remotely that looking into the camera of your computer is the best thing that you can do and yes, I will confirm that it’s absolutely right. But doesn’t work for everyone. Some times, it’s just super, super awkward and strange to look into the camera, as I’m doing now with you, Jen on this video call here, it’s very awkward to look into the camera. And so what I’ll say is this, choose one point on your screen that you always come back to, or that you that you focus on to communicate with the person or people that you’re speaking to. What happens on the other side on the receiving end, is that whether it’s one person or six people, they will feel like you are speaking directly to them. Because you’re always poking focusing in the same place, and our eyes will or our brain will trick ourselves. So even if you’re not actually looking into the camera, you’re looking just beneath it. And I can initially kind of tell that you’re not looking into the camera as the receiver, after a minute or two, my brain will will help me understand that, in fact, you’re actually speaking to me, if that makes sense. Does it make sense? Jen? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So so that’s the goal is choose one plus on your screen, it can be the one person that you’re speaking to. And I always say kind of make their image of them small, and put them right beneath the camera that helps right so that the angle there is smaller. But if you choose that one place and you connect there, you’re golden. In person, you do want to make eye contact with each person around that table. And I would dare say, with each person in that room of 1000 people as well, you want to make each person feel like you’re, you’re speaking directly to them. And there’s kind of a little trick that I that I like to use, and I call it select maintain change. You really want to there six people around the table, you want to select a person and speak to them, you maintain eye contact with them. And you share a piece of information, a moment a part of the flow of what you’re sharing and communicating. And then you move to the next person and do the same thing you select the next person maintain, change, select maintain change. And that gives you a rhythm to make sure that you’re speaking to each person at that table. And in a larger room. What what does that look like, it might not be with each individual 1000 people’s a lot of people, it will be with groups of people and you can maybe choose one person in the audience of you can see them, and every person around them will feel like you’re speaking to them before switching sides, and selecting someone on the other side of the room. All this to say the skill set at its most basic is about making eye contact, being able to maintain it and connect with someone. And then it’s just learning how to adapt it to these different circumstances,

Jenn Smith  37:36  

select maintain change, I really need to write that down, it’s so good. It’s such a great piece of advice or trick or strategy to engage with everybody in a conversation. And that’s totally doable, whether like you said you’re in the room, or you’re even over zoom on, you know, on a camera, you know, maybe you’re not going to be looking all over the place through zoom, you’re going to be looking in that one, you know that one place that you have identified, but still the same strategy can can come into play here, select maintain change. So good. Thank you. Good, good, good tip. So, um, talk to me a little bit around challenges. So as I mentioned, like, I feel like communication is one of the most complex and challenging topics in the workplace for job seekers, for interviewers. So talk to me about some challenges you see folks struggle with when it comes to communications.

Eloise Eonnet  38:38  

I think the what we spoke about earlier that those those nerves and feeling like we need to turn them down, mute them, get rid of them in order to be successful. I see if you know, nerves are are the body’s physical reaction to a stressful situation to a high stakes situation. It’s literally adrenaline pumping from your central nervous system into your bloodstream, that’s actually what’s happening to give you that energy is your hands start to shake, you start to sweat, right? Whatever happens to you in those moments. And it’s there actually to support you through a moment that is larger than life that is important where you need that energy to actually communicate with people. We tend to want to shut it down. So we hold art, we hold our bodies tight, we sit, we sit in small positions on our chair, whatever that whatever that might be. And what you’re doing actually is that you’re suffocating the energy that it will still stay it will remain it will be there. And so rather than doing that, can we start practicing how to open up our body and channel that energy? Why do we use gestures? Naturally, right? If you and I were walking in the park and we were talking, we’d be using gestures we’ve been pointing to things. All of that happens naturally because it’s a way that we express ourselves but it’s also a way to exert energy and put it outwards. towards the people that we’re speaking to. So, really, the biggest challenges that that I see is this buildup of nerves and not knowing how to actually channel them. When in fact, if you practice making gestures that are purposeful, you can then if you feel that surge of energy, use those gestures, another great example is you’re standing and good for you for standing, by the way and not sitting as you give that presentation, but you stood up, you’re doing it, and you sense that you are shifting back and forth. And and you’re not standing firmly and calmly and purposefully and grounded in the floor. But you’re you’re shifting from from side to side. And that is energy, that is your nerve, saying I want to move. So actually learning how to take a step across the room, firmly and strongly. And then reestablishing your body into the ground and keep communicating with the people in front of you. Whether it’s, you know, again, that boardroom meeting or a larger space. So figuring out how am I actually trying to constrain this this nervous energy, this anxiety that I might feel? And how can I actually turn it into purposeful communication through your body,

Jenn Smith  41:13  

using it to your advantage? I never thought about nervous energy, stifling or suffocating, you know, as you’re as you’re slouching, or you’re, you know, talking really quietly and Meeker. I never thought of it that way. I’ve always seen it come across as what I would say as you know, almost like robotic, you know, you just come across as very, you know, rigid, you know, kind of doll quiet robotic, you know, I never thought about, you know, I never thought about in that way. So I love how you kind of shared some of those tips and ideas to kind of rechannel this this anxiousness into purposeful communication to help you move forward. Very smart. So to wrap things up, Eloise, what is one piece of advice that you have for a job seeker who is working on their communication skills to ace their next interview?

Eloise Eonnet  42:08  

The biggest thing is don’t write anything down. And I said this before, but writing things down will get you stuck in one narrative, usually associated to one question that you think hope or guessing they’re going to ask, rather, start speaking out loud about the skill sets and competencies that you want them to know about you find that language and approach the interviewer in that way. Say to yourself, Okay, what do I want them to know? Practice that language that is process oriented and outcome oriented. Speaking it right. So not writing anything down anything down, what you’re going to do is you’re going to start building that muscle memory. And you’re going to be way more likely to share that information during the interview than if you write everything down and make edits on paper. So that’s one piece. And the second piece of this is, is really focusing in on what you want them to know rather than what you think they’re going to ask, which is an impossible task and going back to nerves a few seconds ago, theory nerve, nerve racking, what are the 600 questions that need to prepare for because they might ask me three of those, and I need to prepare for all of those. So you’re creating a really stressful environment for yourself to practice and come up with this language? Rather, how can you prepare what you want them to know? And I pretty much guarantee that if you do that work, regardless of what they ask you, you will have information to share information to answer those questions for them. And it’s a good guarantee. That’s it, that’s information that you want them to know. And hopefully we’ll be successful in that interview.

Jenn Smith  43:43  

100% and could not agree more with practicing what you want them to know, versus trying to anticipate all the millions of questions that could potentially come out of a conversation. I have this conversation daily with job seekers, everybody wants to practice specific responses to specific questions, and it’s just not

Eloise Eonnet  44:04  

effective. It’s not right. Absolutely not. And, and, and ultimately, it should really be a conversation. So if we anticipate all the questions that we’re going to be asked, we’re going to sound robotic, we’re gonna sound kind of stuck and our personalities aren’t going to shine, we’re not actually going to be able to forge connection and and engage with the other person in the moment.

Jenn Smith  44:24  

It’s all about the conversation with another human being when it comes down to it. That’s really what the interview is. So that’s great. So Eloise, finally, what’s next for you and eloquence coaching? So you mentioned some different you mentioned playbooks? You mentioned group presentations, talk to us about what you have going on with your coaching

Eloise Eonnet  44:44  

business. Yeah, I currently focusing in on working with job seekers very much on their interview skills on creating that language, figuring out their game plan for their interview, whether it’s one interview or a series of interviews, so I really, really focused in on that right now. All along with a longer coaching program that I offer that really focuses in on communication skills is the foundation for leadership presence. So how can we build that physical and vocal confidence that that will help us step into that leadership presence? And then also how can we think about sharing information and practicing that, that will help us find our leadership voice. So it is a leadership program, but focused on building those physical and vocal skills as well as creating those structures to rely on to really come off sound like and feel like the leader that we want to become,

Jenn Smith  45:39  

Ooh, that sounds so impactful. So if anyone’s listening and working on their leadership, presence and communication style, definitely reach out to Eloise, this sounds like an excellent professional development program. And I also love that it’s done outside of work. So I know I’ve been doing these programs inside of work when you’re with your peers, and it can feel a little intimidating and maybe not as objective and open. So having kind of a completely objective coach and group of folks to to learn and practice with it sounds like an excellent idea for those that are working on this. So thank you for sharing that. And we’ll make sure in the show notes that we’ve got Eloise’s website and her LinkedIn so folks can reach out directly and get more information. Eloise, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us today. I know our listeners are going to have a ton of key takeaways from this conversation. So that’s a wrap for today’s episode. As always, you can find the show notes, I get Career Clarity. show.com/podcast. Talk to you next time, bye.

Lisa Lewis Miller  47:01  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the

work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity: Finally Find the Work That Fits Your Values and Lifestyle. For the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools, resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.