137: Discernment in the Workplace with Stacey Gordon

I’m excited to have Stacey Gordon on the Career Clarity Show. Stacey and I are talking about both a career path that is so cool and so needed and then about discernment in your career journey. Specifically, we’re breaking down discernment on what you should do if you are finding yourself in a situation where you don’t feel like people who identify like you do. 

Stacey is a DNI expert about all things diversity, inclusion, belonging, bias, and how to make strategic career decisions, to have yourself feel as psychologically safe and as valued as you possibly can throughout the course of your career and life. If you identify as someone who has been historically underrepresented, or excluded, or if you know folks within your organization who may identify that same way and who you love to support and encourage, this episode of the podcast will be for you. 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Rework Work
• LinkedIn: Stacey Gordon
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04   

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m your host, Lisa Miller. And I’m delighted that you are with us today, as always. And today on the show, we are talking about both a career path that is so cool and so needed. And we’ll talk a bit about that. And we’ll talk about discernment in your career journey. Specifically, discernment on what should you do. If you are finding yourself in a situation where you don’t feel like people who identify like you do? are welcome, are valued or encouraged or are respected in your workspace. So if that was not clear enough, today, we are talking to a DNI expert about all things diversity, inclusion, belonging, bias, and how to make strategic career decisions, to have yourself feel as psychologically safe and as valued as you possibly can throughout the course of your career and life. So if that is at all interesting to you, either because you identify as someone who has been historically underrepresented, or excluded, or if you know folks within your organization who may identify that same way and who you love to support and encourage and be a better ally for today’s episode of the podcast will be for you. Now, let me tell you about the background of our guests today, Stacy Gordon, landing and leading at the intersection of diversity inclusion and workplace culture. In her role as executive advisor in diversity strategist Stacey Gordon coaches and Council’s executive leaders on D AI strategies for the business while offering a no nonsense approach to the education for the broader employee population. Stacey is the creator of the number one resume course at LinkedIn learning and an unconscious bias course which has consistently been the second highest viewed course on the platform. It has also been translated into at least four languages and has been featured by LinkedIn, Microsoft, and Virgin America, or the artist formerly known as Virgin America. Now Alaska Airlines, previously employed as an adjunct professor teaching diversity in organizations at Phillips graduate university. She now teaches at Pepperdine University in the business school where she earned her MBA Stacy’s book on bias. Addressing unconscious bias at work is currently available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble and wherever books are sold. I hope you are as excited as I am to welcome Stacey to the Career Clarity Show. So Stacy, welcome to the show.

Stacey Gordon  3:06  

Thank you. And I guess I have to update my bio, because just a few days ago, LinkedIn announced that my unconscious bias course is number one.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:16  

That’s amazing. Congratulations. And I honestly feel like that says a lot about who we are as a society. And what we are caring about as a culture right now in ways that are so encouraging, and, frankly, are a little bit different from how things have been over the last decade. And with that in mind, I’m wondering if we could start our conversation today on how you got into this world of work around unconscious bias and diversity, equity and inclusion, because it’s a space that is very hot right now, and very needed right now. And is fairly new when it comes to sectors that people can work in.

Stacey Gordon  4:02  

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because we’re in Dei, you know, as a practitioner, as a consultant. You know, it’s probably been around for 20 something years, 20 plus years, not quite 30 years. So it is a newer career. And I started really, as a recruiter. And the thing is, I always thought of myself as somebody that focused on diversity, equity and inclusion, but I never really thought about having to focus on it specifically, what made me realize it was necessary was as I was working as a recruiter, it would always be more difficult for me. I always have to work harder to get women hired to get people of color hired. And I was like, why is this such an issue for people? You know, why is it I got to come with all the receipts for the black guy but not for the white guy and And that’s really what made me focus specifically on Dei. Because I was like, wow, these companies need to change their procedures, they need to really see that this was a problem. And I tried to change it as a recruiter, and you know, he’s got kind of told, like, that’s not your job, we just didn’t you don’t recruit. So I was like, Okay, I’m gonna make it my job.

Lisa Lewis Miller  5:23  

I love that attitude and that approach. And Stacey, I admire you, and I commend you. And I acknowledge that that’s, that’s a hard thing to be in that situation where you can so clearly see bias and different candidates being treated in a different way. And doing your best to be an internal champion and facing a lot of resistance, and pressure to to abandon that, like, well just be a recruiter, you know, or whatever they would say, to try to take some of the wind out of your sails. And that’s a hard environment to, to find a way to thrive in.

Stacey Gordon  6:05  

It definitely is, I think it’s why, you know, I’m one of those people, though, they don’t tell me I can’t do something, because I’ll figure out how to do it faster and better. We know, and I think when, when I would hear that it wasn’t something that they needed to focus on, then that made me realize they weren’t a company that I would want to recruit people into. And so then I was like, well, in my clientele, you know, my client list is getting smaller and smaller of the people that I would actually want to send individuals to. And that’s the thing that companies don’t realize is that, the more they don’t focus on this, they might not be focusing on it, but we are late. And people would ask me, people still ask me, What do you think about this company? Would you work there, and I will tell people, the Absolute Truth, don’t go there. Don’t do it. Or at least don’t go to that department and work with that person. That’s what’s gonna, that’s what circulates. That’s what gets told. And then when recruiters can’t figure out why it’s getting harder and harder for them to hire. This is why

Lisa Lewis Miller  7:19  

Absolutely, it’s, you know, when you look at organizations and their value of diversity and belonging, what you see is that there are a lot of organizations who want to be out at the forefront of this and who want to be really thoughtful and smart and invest a lot of time and energy and resources into this work. And their organizations who I think very mistakenly believe like, oh, well, we don’t want to be political, or we don’t want to, that’s not a problem for us. And so many statements that come from privilege, and come from bias and probably unconscious bias, if we’re giving them the generous benefit of a doubt, that are ultimately, so harmful. But it can be really difficult for organizations like that, to have enough people who are speaking truth to power to get that message through that no, actually our unwillingness to be more inclusive and create a space where people feel like they can belong, is becoming a professional liability for our organization.

Stacey Gordon  8:30  

Definitely. And, you know, I always ask when, especially when I’m doing a presentation for groups of HR professionals. Now, like, Who is that hiring manager, who’s a liability for you right now, like, you know who that person is, they are a risk to your company, because they are out there discriminating and acting in biased ways and doing things that open you up to liability. And if you know that, you know that this is how they’re behaving, know what you’re open, you’re, you’re an accomplice right to their page here.

Lisa Lewis Miller  9:07  

That’s a mic drop moment of, because I would imagine every single person listening to this knows that person, right? The person who it’s like, oh, they’re gonna make some inappropriate comments and jokes, so I’m not going to go to lunch with them. Right? Or, I don’t really want to work with them on this project, because they’re going to try to be all buddy buddy with me and make some comments that are just going to be full of micro aggressions. And I don’t want to have to deal with that. Like, I don’t have the spare bandwidth to do the emotional labor to deal with that or to educate them. Right. And Stacy, that’s such a powerful way to think about that. Insofar as we don’t help facilitate removing those people from places of power and authority, we’re enabling that behavior and that treatment to continue

Stacey Gordon  9:56  

by silence is consent right? It is the reason that and I forget, I think it’s a sales force study that was done earlier this year, well, maybe just a couple of months ago, I think in August. That said, that shows that 97% of black professionals do not want to go back into face to face work. Because since they have been working from home, their stress has gone down, their sense of well being has gone up, their mental health has been protected and increased, because we’re not having to deal with that kind of stuff, right, these microaggressions and these things, day to day, at least not as much,

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:38  

then I think they’re seeing the same data in the education space, that a lot of let’s say, a lot of parents who have an abundance and privilege have been arguing that, you know, we should just get school back to how it was. And it’s unfair. And it’s discriminatory, that we’re trying to protect students, you know, whether it’s with mask wearing or with virtual school options, or anything like that. But I think that, that when these folks have privilege, try to make the argument that, oh, it’s so discriminatory, that the different communities that they’re trying to claim are being discriminated against so often are saying, actually, this is a breath of relief. It is so nice to be able to attend a school virtually, and not have to deal with comments from students or parents or educators that might, you know, be well intentioned in that person’s eyes, but don’t come across with compassion and love and care.

Stacey Gordon  11:40  

But well, it’s just a safety issue, too. I mean, honestly, my sister’s a teacher, and I have to listen to all the things that she’s dealing with. And it’s just is so awful. And it’s like, why don’t you just get out of teaching, I understand that we need teachers, and I adore and respect every teacher because I would I tell you, I could not do it, I could not do it. And my sister loves teaching. She’s like, but I just don’t like all the other pieces, you know, the administrative and the this and that, and that I’ll make Yeah, but they’ll those other pieces are like 80% of your day. So technically, you don’t love teaching anymore. You get to do this, but

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:24  

my husband is an educator, too. And he says the same thing. He says the kids are great. It’s the it’s the grownups that seemed to be the problem more often than not, and your poor, sweet sister knowing that, that you’re an expert in career change and resume that everything probably feels like a very loaded conversation or water to step into with you.

Stacey Gordon  12:42  

Oh, I know, every time we deliver, you just have the conversation, right?

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:48  

Oh, I love it. Okay, well, hold on. Let me let me back you up, Stacy, because I want to hear about you. You were working in recruiting, you were noticing disparate outcomes and that you had a burden of proof, which was unfair and absurdly high for different candidates compared to their, let’s say, white male counterparts? How did you get from that space to the work that you’re doing today?

Stacey Gordon  13:14  

So I was very intentional about it. Right? I was like, Okay, I have recruiting background, and I knew being a recruiter that you get put into a box. It’s actually why I started my own recruiting agency was because I wanted a job as a diversity recruiter. And nobody would hire me. Even though I had I had tons of connections. And they I did all the informational interviews and all of that. And they all said, Stacy, I would hire you on the spot. But we only have one diversity recruiter and for the entire company. And so they’re like, we can’t bring you in as an external person to that job, just like there were so many recruiters in our company that want that job, right? We can’t actually give it to you as an external person, you need to come in and work as a recruiter for a little bit. And then we could promote you to that role. And I heard that again, and again, and again, from different companies. And I was like, screw this. I don’t have time for that. Right? I just, I just don’t have time for it. And so I started a recruiting agency. So that’s how I got started in recruiting. And then from recruiting. I realized once again, now I’ve been a recruiter, I’m still not technically diversity recruit, because I haven’t worked internally for the big companies, right. So they don’t doesn’t matter how much diversity recruiting you do. If you haven’t been in that role for a specific type of company for a specific tenure, right with a specific title. It doesn’t count, right. And I knew that going in. So I was like, Okay, I’m going to have to go into internals, so I actually stopped working externally for a little bit, and when internally were very specifically to a role in dei and within the talent acquisition team, so that I could say, Okay, I have an experience, I’ve been here, done the thing. But I also wanted to go in and kind of do some recon, because I knew that I wanted to stay and continue running my own business. And I thought, Well, it’d be interesting to see how the consultant you know how the corporate world works, because I’m going to be consulting to them. So let me see what it is that they do. And I was just appalled. I just remember thinking,

Lisa Lewis Miller  15:44  

wow, this is

Stacey Gordon  15:45  

why nothing gets done. This is why there’s no change in diversity. This is interesting.

Lisa Lewis Miller  15:53  

Let me pause there for a second. Because there’s some pieces of the way you’re telling your story that are so strategic, and I want to make sure that we’re, we’re really underlining a couple of them. So I love that you had this bigger vision in mind, I want to work for myself, I want to be out there on my own. And that you did effectively a gap analysis to say, okay, in order to be taken seriously, in the way that I want to be taken seriously, there are a couple very specific types of experience, I want to make sure that I can say that I have, I can say that I checked that box, I can say that I worked under that title. And then you crafted the way that you were thinking about yourself and pitching yourself as a candidate to fit those particular needs for organizations. And then you got inside, essentially, what would be a prospective client organization and did your reconnaissance to figure out? What are their processes and systems look like right now? What do they pay for and invest in? How do they put their money where their mouth is? Or do they actually fund the things that they say that they value, and getting a really clear understanding of what it would look like to then come back and pitch one of these organizations to be a paying client in the future is so strategic, and it feels like it’s fairly risk managed to, you know, if you had decided and gotten into this dei internal role, and loved it, you could have just, you know, pull the pull the chain to stop the bus there and say, You know what, this is a great place for me to build a career and a life. So I just, it’s so cool to hear you articulate the way that you approach this. Because when people think about career change, they think about risk, like, what if it doesn’t work out? But what if I make this big leap, and it isn’t the way that I thought it was. And then I ended up having to go back with my tail between my legs and gravel for my old job, right. And you were just so strategic, and so savvy about saying, I’m going to take these incremental steps, they are intended to build one upon another, I could get off at any point in this process and hang out there for a while if I want to. But given the bigger picture goal that I have in mind, these are the things that are going to best enable me to create that, that business, create that subject matter expertise, and to create that professional life for myself.

Stacey Gordon  18:20  

Yeah, well, and that’s the I mean, so and that’s why one of the the courses that I teach is on making a career change. So on LinkedIn learning, I go through these steps, right? What do you need to do to make that change? And because I use them, and they work, and I think that one thing is we think we’re going to make this change is going to happen overnight. And if it doesn’t happen overnight, then we failed. And there, you know, I just can’t stress enough that that is not going to happen. They it’s just not there isn’t even a Lifetime movie fairy tale about how that’s going to work, right? It just doesn’t exist. So understanding that this is a few years in the making, you’re not going to make the decision today to make a change. And then tomorrow, it’s going to be done. You’re talking two to three years probably right? It’s a really get to a successful point, you might make that change within a year, but totally get where you’re trying to go might take you a little bit longer, but I liken it to you know, climbing a ladder. If you don’t start climbing the ladder, then there’s no way you’re going to get to the top first of all, no, it’s like, we know that. But if you think about what’s at the top of the ladder, right, the vantage point, the perspective that you get from being up top is completely different than the perspective that you get from being down at the bottom at the starting point. But if you there’s no way to get to the top without starting and as you said anywhere along those wrongs as you climb the ladder and your view and your perspective changes at every step along the way. You might say oh, look over there. Something else I could do, which I never thought of doing. Let me go look at that, well, you might go two more steps and get an even higher vantage point and then say, oh, there’s a building I didn’t even know I could see, right, because I couldn’t see it from the ground. But now I can, maybe I want to work there. Until you start to take those steps, you’ll never, ever open yourself up to the other opportunities. And nine times out of 10, when you start down a career change and say I want to go from A to Z, you never make it to z, because you find something so much better along the way, and something that you couldn’t have imagined when you got started on the journey. But what happens as you take those steps, people come in, they give you information, you learn things, you meet new people, you get into new industries, new groups, new, you know, teams, and all of a sudden other vantage points open up to you that you just didn’t even know existed.

Lisa Lewis Miller  20:51  

I love that. And, you know, one of the things that people often say that they want is, is a career vision, I want the five year the 10 year vision of where I’m going and what the title is that I’m going to have. And and I think the way that you just articulated that so beautifully shows why a career vision, you know, with some sort of title, at the end of it, that where you want to end up in 10 years, is probably not going to be all that helpful. But thinking about giving yourself opportunities to take baby steps of learning and growth and steps up rungs on the ladder to increase your visibility, increase your perspective. That’s the kind of thing that’s so important and thinking about how you want to feel in your job. And as a professional and letting that kind of guide which ladder you want to take a next step up on is probably a lot more helpful than giving yourself the directive of I want to be the chief diversity officer at PepsiCo within 10 years or something like that.

Stacey Gordon  21:55  

Right. And it’s fine to think it’s use it as a guide, right? And in fact, it’s so funny, I just said this to a client earlier today. We’re talking about something completely different. But it’s like use it as a guide and not as a rulebook. Right? And there’s a huge difference, because you can say, I want to be Chief Diversity Officer of Pepsi. But if you end up being Vice President of Diversity for Johnson and Johnson, don’t be upset, right, like. So it’s, it’s the idea that, really what you’re saying is I want to get into the DDI industry, and I want to have maybe the top role, or at least a high ranking role. And maybe I want to be working for a really large corporations. That’s really what you’re looking for. Are those parameters, not the specific because otherwise, you box yourself in to these really tight and impossible and achievable goals. And then you say I failed? And it’s like, no, but did you see all the other really cool things you did along the way? And I think that’s another thing that we forget to do is celebrate ourselves, I know I do. Terrible. I have to literally say, Stacy, you did some good stuff this week, they leave yourself. Rarely do it?

Lisa Lewis Miller  23:18  

Well, I think you’re not alone in that I think most people rarely stop to acknowledge, here’s what went well, in my week, here’s what I loved this week, here’s what I loved this month, or in the last quarter, in my career in my professional life,

Stacey Gordon  23:32  

we can easily list all the things that went wrong. But it

Lisa Lewis Miller  23:36  

typically is a little bit more helpful for those of you listening to this to focus in on what feels good, and what’s life giving, than just the places where you wish you’d done something differently. Right? If you just enable that inner perfectionist to have the microphone all the time to say, Well, you could have done that you should have responded to that email faster, or you didn’t prepare for that meeting or blah, blah, blah, whatever the the invisible benchmarks are, that you’re holding yourself to, that’s not going to be directionally helpful for you on where to go next, and what what to do next, it’s just going to be, you know, lashing yourself beating yourself up for whatever is in the past. So thinking about it in a much more future looking way feels really important. Maybe I’ll turn that into a segue of talking about the diversity and inclusion and belonging space. Because I love that the the particular slice of this world that you have really made a name for yourself in is the space around unconscious bias. And I’m curious when unconscious bias started to grab your attention. And what made it feel really compelling as an area to double down and focus and write your book and create your course.

Stacey Gordon  24:53  

I think that so and I usually share the story when I think about this because people ask well How did you get interested in diversity, equity and inclusion? And I kind of have to have a tongue in cheek remark of in case you haven’t noticed, I’m black. But we’re on a podcast. So I can’t do that one. But you better see my picture. I’m black. So I have always been interested in diversity, equity and inclusion, because it has impacted every moment of my life along the way. And I think that, you know, people say, Oh, that’s an overestimation. How do you really know, you know, and it just it has. And so I’ve always just been interested in why people get treated differently. And in fact, my grandmother tells a story that my grandmother had like three jobs. And she was still also watching me. And sometimes one of her jobs, she worked at a library, she did cleaning for the library. And so she would take me with her to the library, and I would sit and read while she cleaned, but my dad could come and pick me up. And so we were on the bus one day, and I guess this I was gonna say, old white lady, but this older white lady wanted my grandmother to get up and give her her seat. And I guess I told the, and I say, I guess because I don’t remember this at all. But my grandmother tells the story that I told this lady off, and I told her that my grandmother works really hard, and that she’s not getting up and giving you her seat. And I basically does, like her told her off and like leave my grandmother alone. And it just it, it just makes me think like, even at five I recognize the injustice in that, like, Who are you to ask my grandmother to get up? Like, don’t you know how hard she works? It’s so it’s just I think it’s always there. When you were treated differently, you always see it. So I think the thing is wanting to do something about it. I’ve always wanted to do something about it. I thought for a long time I was going to be a judge. And I was going to be able to, you know, change sentences for people of color. And when I realized how the three strike law worked and how things were so black and white, I was like, Oh, hell no, I can’t, I can’t be in that system. I can’t do it. And so I actually dropped out of law school because I was like, this is not the way to go. I cannot help people this way.

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:26  

Quite an interesting. And again, a very courageous decision point defined yourself and decision to make, I feel like I, when you work in the career change space, you talk to a lot of people who have made career decisions that they don’t totally stand behind in their current version of themselves. And Stacy, I can’t tell you how many people I have spoken to who were law students. And you had a moment like that of the What am I doing here, this is not going to help me make the impact that I want to make, or I don’t like this. And if this is the rest of my career, what have I signed up for. And they often feel so stuck, and so kind of railroaded into that path of well, I’ve already taken out the loans for one year of law school, I better finish it out and pass the bar so that I can pay off these loans. It can feel like a just like an oppressive student loan debt that then drives all of your decision making. So again, kudos to you for having the presence of mind and the self awareness and the courage to realize, oh, no, this is not going to enable me to make the kind of impact that I want to make, and to pull the parachute ripcord and get out.

Stacey Gordon  28:45  

Yeah, and it’s, you know, there’s two sides to that, right, because the other part of it is that I probably shouldn’t have gone to law school in the first place. And, and I think about all the people along the way, when I told people kind of what I wanted to do. Nobody said, Don’t go to law school, try business school. But there was never, you know, a was never a thought for people because I for the longest while I said I was gonna go. You know, once when I was younger, it was the whole judge thing. And then when I figured out that I had to be an attorney, to be a judge. That’s when I was like, Oh, I just have to go to law school because I had no intention of going to law school. I just wanted to be a judge. And so I’m sick. Wait, I gotta go law school. So then when I told people that, well, I want to go to law school and I don’t really want to get you know, I don’t want to take the bar because I want to actually practice law. I really just want the JD I just want the information. I just want to know how to use the law to help people. Like people just say, well, that’s crazy. Why would you go to law school and not take the bar, you need to take the bar. Nobody said, that’s crazy. Don’t go to law school. If You don’t want to take the bar.

Lisa Lewis Miller  30:02  

And you know, I feel like in hearing you tell that story, I’m glad that you can laugh about it now, because I can imagine at the time, it might have been a little bit more painful in the the going through. But I think it’s really symbolic or emblematic of how so many of us get kind of crap career advice from the people around us, because sometimes they get so invested in something that we said was our dream, that they often aren’t in a position to say, Hold on, pump the brakes. I’m hearing you say this, my understanding of this career world is this. I’m noticing some potential friction or some potential in compatibility,

Stacey Gordon  30:42  

right. And in a lot of the people that I talked to were lawyers, so all they knew was law, right? And law school, they know anything about business school. And so then when I’m in law school, when I’m thinking about dropping out and saying, I’m thinking about just dropping out going to business school, nobody said, Hey, why don’t you just stay in law school, you’re already here and get a JD MBA. Right? Like, stuff would have made sense, even. I mean, there’s so many different things. And so I think that’s another reason why I’m so passionate about talking to people about their careers and helping them see that you need a plan, you know, whatever it was that you said, when you were six about what you want to do, when you grow up is the thing that for some reason, just get stuck to us. And people like when I thought you said you wanted to be a doctor. Yeah, that’s it. I want to be a man on the moon. But you know what, I think? How are you really forcing people to stick to something they chose when they were six years old? It that’s just ludicrous.

Lisa Lewis Miller  31:45  

So true, so true. And it’s still so pervasive, that we really hold ourselves accountable to commitments that we made, when we knew less about ourselves. We knew less about the careers when we knew less about our values with respect to having a life outside of work, and what kind of holistic well being looks like it’s, it’s such an interesting and really painful challenge that people have to work through as they’re going through career discernment decision points.

Stacey Gordon  32:21  

It is. And then I think the other piece, too, is, you know, we talk about diversity, equity inclusion, that means we’ll look at counselors in schools who are then giving advice to people. And we see it all the time where it’s like, you know, the little black kid says, oh, I want to be a doctor. And they’re like, Oh, you want to take something a little less challenging. I don’t know, if you want to take all those science classes, you might want to try teaching instead, or you might want to try, you know, whatever, right? They just swayed them from careers, that because that person sitting there is so small minded, and so full of their own bias that they can’t see the potential in this in this child. So there’s a lot of that that goes on as well.

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:02  

Well, that feels like a beautiful segue into talking more about unconscious bias, and your book and your course. And when you think about the impact that you want that to have on someone when they finish the book, and when they read the course, where do you want somebody to be?

Stacey Gordon  33:19  

I really want them to see that. They can make a difference, they can make the change. You know, we sit and my sister’s gonna be mad that I said this, but whatever. My ancestor, you know, they said, I’m talking to her about what’s going on with her. And I even heard it, she sent me a message today. And it was like, Yeah, but I can’t do that. Oh, but I can’t. It’s always thinking about the I can’t and the she’s trying to overcome the challenge before it even, you know, what does that saying? Like, we’ll cross that bridge when you come to it and think we haven’t even gotten to the bridge. Why are you? How about we start with? What is it that you want to do? What is the impact that you want to make? And so I think that what I want people to really understand is that you can do these things. There’s a little meme that goes around says, What is it beautiful girl, you can do hard things. And it is, it’s so true. It’s just you have to let go of this idea that it’s going to happen immediately. And it’s going to happen in this fairy tale vision that you have in your head, because it’s not. And once you let go of that, and realize that you can do whatever it is that you’re setting your mind out to do. Then just go do it. Right. Like there’s people who want to help, there are resources, but it does take sometimes taking a little bit more time than just asking your neighbor or your friend or the person who’s closest to you, right? It does mean you’ve got to go do some work to get the information that you need.

Lisa Lewis Miller  34:57  

Yeah, that makes so much sense. I think that When it comes to unconscious bias, I think that probably every single one of us has created artificial limitations for ourselves around what is possible and what is available to us because of messages that we have seen or received from individuals or from society or from advertising or from whatever, over the course of our lives. And I want to acknowledge that it’s, there are systems in place to that can make, even when you feel like you’ve uncovered some of those unconscious biases, and you are feeling so much more empowered and competent and capable. You still have to deal with the unconscious bias around you when individuals and in systems. And that’s exhausting.

Stacey Gordon  35:53  

It is it’s exhausting. And there’s two things because First, there’s the limitation that we put on ourselves based upon the limitations that have been put on us before. So sometimes we limit ourselves before someone else has the opportunity to do it. Right. And so we don’t ask for the raise. We don’t ask for the promotion. We don’t put ourselves out there. Because we’re like, what’s the point? And as you said, it’s exhausting. When you tried, and you tried and you tried in the past, and it hasn’t worked? You’re like, well, what’s gonna make today different? And I think that again, goes back to what I want people to understand is that what’s gonna make today different is you believing that you can do it, and that if that person says, no, they’re just an obstacle or roadblock something to move around. They’re not a locked door. And so just understanding that, that just because they can’t see your potential, and they can’t see what it is that you can do in this world, doesn’t mean you have to allow them to limit you. So we have to keep pushing and moving forward. And then understanding that, yes, those systems are in place, the systems are going to work to stop you. And I think going into it, knowing that and being prepared for it so that it doesn’t come as a surprise, it doesn’t come as a shock. It doesn’t then derail you and demotivate you. You just say, Okay, I knew that was coming next. Right and keep moving forward.

Lisa Lewis Miller  37:17  

Yeah, it feels like the difference between taking a rejection or denial of an opportunity as the God’s honest truth, like this is the way the world is, versus taking it as this is one door. I’m just going to go try another door. And see what it brings up for me. Is that a question that I know a lot of people who are listening really wrestle with? Which is the the do I say? Or do I go? dilemma, if you find yourself within an organization where you have been knocking on some doors, and they are not opening to you, and you are becoming more and more concerned that it’s it’s bias, right? It’s not that you’re lacking in some sort of capability? It’s not that you’ve got gaps to fill, it is really coming from a place of systematic oppression. What do you do? And how do you make that discernment decision on? Is it worth it to keep knocking on doors here, or to expend the emotional labor to try to change things here? Versus expending the energy and the emotional labor to try to go somewhere else where knocking on doors won’t be so hard?

Stacey Gordon  38:35  

Yeah, I mean, it’s risk, right? What does that pros and cons list I guess, is really what you have to look at and take what is there to gain if you’re going to put in the labor? And what is there to gain if you put in that labor elsewhere? I think that’s why right now, you know, I was talking about the great resignation, and everyone’s leaving the workforce. And I find that so offensive, because there’s this tinge of you know, how dare you employee clip on me the employer, right, when I need you? And it’s like, yeah, when I needed you, you weren’t there for me. So yeah, we’re out. I think that it really is this idea now that you have to look at what is going to make sense for you. And in order for you to do that you actually have to have a strategy, you have to have a plan. If you’re just sitting around expecting and hoping that things are going to change. You are going to be there for a while until you get furloughed or laid off or fired. And that’s just what’s going to happen right? Like eventually got to take your your career in your hands and stop leaving it in the hands of your employer because they don’t care about your career. They care about your outputs, and how much of it they can wring from you. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. I’m not saying all employers are awful. I’m just saying that that’s the system but we’re in a, that’s how it works and understanding that then you don’t have to be, again frustrated at it. You don’t have to be resentful of it. It’s just this is the system we’re in. So then how do I make it work for me? And that’s the plan that you have to come up with. So then the answer is, how do I make it work for me? Well, will it make sense for me to keep trying here? Can I see some kind of potential reward or some way that this is going to change? Yes, then stay right. If no, then go. But it’s also not about, you know, going viral with some sort of weird quitting video, right? Because you had it you just walk out. It’s being smart and having a plan. You know, when I worked for a really big company, and I wanted to switch from the role, I was in to another role, the business development role, and I went to my manager, my manager said it was fine. Go talk to his manager, because she was the head of the department. And she basically said, you know, I don’t see you in this role. You’ve got young kids, it’s not going to work for you requires a lot of travel, like she really just kind of like, I shouldn’t be out of her office like, this is not. And so literally, as I was walking out of her office, I quit right there in my head. I was like, Oh, we are done. We just broke up. You. You just don’t know it yet. And so did I quit that day? No. But did I quit in every other way? Absolutely. I stopped cutting in early, I stopped giving more than the absolute minimum. And I made sure that I took any extra work or mental space that I had, and used it to find my next opportunity. And so I used up all my vacation days, I took every Sick Day and use it to go look for a new job. And I did what I had to do, right, I still came in and I still gave what I needed to do for the job. I didn’t shortchange them. But they weren’t getting an ounce more than was needed until it was time for me to give him my letter of notice. And so I think that’s the gotta have a plan. Because nobody can plan when they’re hungry and are broke.

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:07  

I mean, you’re saying that with a with a laugh, but it is so true. The plans that we create, and I’m almost thinking about there being air quotes around the word plan, the plan that we create, when we’re feeling desperate, where we feel like we do not have financial runway, we have not been spending time rewarming our network, we haven’t been thinking about what else we want to do. That plan is never your best plan. It is never the plan where you’re happiest is never the plan or you make the most money, it is never the plan where you have the most fun.

Stacey Gordon  42:36  

No so but it can be your plan. A right it can be your escape plan. So that plan might be your escape plan, but then understand that that’s it’s temporary. They don’t take a temporary situation and make it permanent.

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:52  

It’s so so true. And I feel like if there’s anything else that listeners take away from today’s episode, it may be pay attention to the moments when you want to break up with your job. They don’t need to know it right then and there. But if you have an interaction with a leader, or a client or a teammate, or anything that makes you internally pull that parachute cord and say, Nope, I will not abide this any longer. Then figuring out alright, what’s my escape plan? How do I get myself out of here and land somewhere Great. That can be one of the most empowering career moments you can possibly have.

Stacey Gordon  43:35  

Right? And I again, I give the caveat that the escape plan isn’t usually the job that’s going to get you someplace great, right? The Escape Plan is the plan that’s going to save your mental health and get you out of a situation. That is frustrating you right now, and understand that. As I say it’s temporary, and you have to go into it knowing that that is probably going to be temporary. But at least it gives you a reprieve because nowadays you have that new job energy and you’re someplace, it just helps you mentally. But then you need to then think about what is the long term plan. So if you can stay in that job that you don’t like, right but and have mentally quit, but can stay. Do that. Because if you’re not being harassed or not being bullied, you’re in a place where you’ve worked there long enough to where you can throw it in, right? And you can take all that extra energy. And like I worked in a job one time where I could do that job, literally the first two hours of the day and I was done with the rest of the day. What are you doing? Well, you take your time, you when somebody asked for something, you don’t hand it to them right away and say oh, yeah, here you go. You say, Oh, that’s gonna take me a little while. Can I get that to you this afternoon or tomorrow? And they’ll say sure. And then you know, it’s done, it’s ready to send, and you spend the time working on the things that you need to do upskilling going on to LinkedIn learning, right? doing informational interviews, if that’s what you need to do, to learn what it is that you need to put into place so that you then can actually get to the job that you are, you know, working towards.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:25  

Love that love that. Well, Stacey, this has been such a fabulous conversation. If somebody is listening to this and wants more of your strategic smarts on bias and di and making career moves and having a fabulous resume, what are some of the places they can keep track of all the work that you do?

Stacey Gordon  45:42  

It’s actually easiest to just go to rework work.com and find me there, I have compiled all the stuff, all the things I used to say, Oh, I’m on social on LinkedIn, and on Facebook, and Instagram, and Twitter, and then you could go to get my book at unbiased book.com. And all of those things are true, but I have taken all of those links and put them in one place so that if you just go to rework, work, calm and join our community, you will get access to all the things

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:11  

fabulous. I love that woman of efficiency. Well, Stacey, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show to talk about D limiting on limiting, addressing unconscious biases and removing them from your own thought pattern so that you can step into your own greatness, create strategic plans and make some moves.

Stacey Gordon  46:34  

Yeah. Thanks so much for the invitation. I enjoyed it.

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:45  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and word to help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. and make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally finds the work that fits your values and lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book And don’t forget to get your other tools, resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.