135: Ending Overwhelm and Burnout with Kim Irving

Today on the Career Clarity Show, we are discussing a topic that so many of us can identify and resonate with – burnout. Many times, burnout almost becomes synonymous with the experience of doing work. It is simply what work is. We begin to think that work isn’t supposed to be fun, that it’s supposed to be hard work with a furrowed brow or you just put your shoulder down and plow through. 

But for so many Career Clarity seekers out there, this is a kind of a reality for work that we’re unwilling to accept as the forever truth. Feeling burnout does not lead to fulfillment, it does not lead to sustainability. So if you are feeling like you might be sliding into a period of burnout, or maybe you are definitely in the thick of burnout. You’re likely wondering “How do I get out of this? How do I recover? What do I do? How do I possibly summon up any more energy? Because I feel like I’m so exhausted and drained already.” This episode of the podcast is going to be a fabulous resource for you. 

Kim Irving is a burnout expert joining us to share all things about sustainable success. She is an executive success coach helping high achieving women permanently end overwhelm and burnout without sacrificing their success so they can create their most intentional, meaningful life, personally and professionally. And be sure to look back with no regrets. 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Kim Irving
• LinkedIn: Kim Irving
• Instagram: @KimIrvingCoaching
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Transcript

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04   

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career.

Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I am your host, Lisa Miller, and I am tickled that you are with us today. On today’s episode of the podcast, we are talking about an experience that I’m guessing every person who has ever listened to the Career Clarity Show in the history of its hundreds of episodes of existence, can identify with and resonate with. And that is the topic of burnout. For so many of us, burnout almost becomes synonymous with the experience of doing work. It’s just what work is work isn’t supposed to be fun. It’s supposed to be hard work with a furrowed brow or you just put your shoulder down and plow through. And for so many of us that’s kind of a reality for work that we’re unwilling to accept as the Forever truth. Feeling burnout does not lead to fulfillment, it does not lead to sustainability. It does not lead to longevity, it does not lead to happiness. And it does not lead to a ton of positive mental and physical health outcomes. So if you are feeling like you might be sliding into a period of burnout, or maybe you know, you are definitely in the thick of burnout. And you’re wondering, how do I get out of this? How do I recover? What do I do? How do I possibly summon up any more energy? Because I feel like I’m so exhausted and drained already. Today’s episode of the podcast is probably going to be a fabulous resource for you. On today’s episode of the podcast, I am bringing on a burnout expert to share all things about sustainable success. Today’s guest on the podcast is Kim Erving. Kim is an executive success coach helping high achieving women permanently end overwhelm and burnout without sacrificing their success. So they can create their most intentional, meaningful life, personally and professionally. And be sure to look back with no regrets. She combines a years of experience with a background in psychology, mindfulness research and somatic studies. A former therapist and hospital social worker, and no stranger to burnout. Her mission is to empower other women with the tools to thrive, because when women rise, the whole planet comes with them. Ken, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Kim Irving  3:08  

Thank you so much. And I loved the build up for the topic that we’re diving into today. It was just so well said and I’m so happy to be here.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:17  

Well, I’m delighted that you are here with us today. Because in some form or fashion, I believe, pretty much every top performer has dealt with burnout in some manifestation in their careers. You know, for some people, it is working too hard. For some people, it is the bored out variety, where you’ve been doing the same thing over and over again, and you just are so sick of it that you could scream. And it’s not fun to go through. And I think all of us if we could, would avoid feeling burnout and would not choose the behaviors or put ourselves into the situations, you know, or would avoid the circumstances that make burnout, more likely to happen. But so often you don’t know what’s about to happen until you’re in it. And it almost feels like you just got bamboozled. But I want to back up here for a second and start with what got you interested in burnout as a topic. Because as somebody who comes to this executive success coaching world with a background in the world of social work and therapy, I’m guessing there’s an interesting story there.

Kim Irving  4:34  

Yeah, I guess you could say that. Well, I went through my fair share of trying to figure out my career path as well. I bounced, like I studied journalism and undergrad and then I kind of transitioned over to TV and film production and was doing that in LA I was very burnt out doing that stressed out to the max and also mentally realize like, this is not going to be my life. This is not like where I see my life going for the next 2030 4050 years. So actually burnt out, got laid off, fell into a deep depression was pretty much numbing myself with cigarettes and lots of food and couldn’t really do much of anything, I was just sitting on the couch watching reruns of Desperate Housewives, on Netflix, and honestly, just feeling like pretty, pretty lost. And I had to do some some deep reflection about you know, where, where I really thrived. And and what I really enjoyed doing. And I’ve always been someone that people can fight in, I’m a great listener, and I really enjoy helping other people started researching different career paths that you don’t entail that type of work, and landed on social work. And so then I began the long path of building up a resume that would get me into graduate school to get a Masters of Social Work, because I had TV and film production were like, Who the heck are you like, you clearly don’t have a passion for social work, not knowing that, like, I’ve been helping people my whole life. So yeah, I went back for my Masters of Social Work thrived in my program. After learning some skills along that initial burnout path, and got into like a really prestigious hospital was doing medical social work, started private practice, and started to feel some of the familiar feelings of burnout. Now, I realized the first burnout had more to do with how I was relating to myself into my work, which is a lot of things that I ended up working on with my clients. So sometimes, it’s your external circumstances. But a lot of times, there’s things happening internally that are creating for adding to that dynamic. And that certainly was the case for me, especially the first time, you know, like the, the pressure, I was putting on myself, the beliefs and thoughts that I had the way that I had to be thought I had to be perceived by other people like, that creates a lot of anxiety and stress. And so had to get a really good handle on that which I started prior to my social work program. And then kind of continued throughout, obviously, like through my studies and things as I continue to learn more and more. In the second scenario, I feel like that was more of like an organizational, more of like the board out, it was satisfying to a certain degree, but I also just felt like, especially in the medical, social work, I just wasn’t, I just knew I wasn’t using like the fullness of my skills, or my greatest talents. And there wasn’t a lot of flexibility to change that within my role. And even when I looked about like, the opportunities for growth, there wasn’t a lot unless it was moving more into like, like management or like public health policy and administration. And that wasn’t really an interest of mine. So, I mean, it almost felt like an ethical obligation, like it was really slowly killing me to feel like I wasn’t learning and growing in the way and that’s one of my top values. I love, personal and professional development, growth, learning, and was really missing that in that career. And so I started to transition more into coaching, I have a whole other long story that I won’t get into today about, you know, just my experience with therapy and the benefits and also many of the limitations of the therapy model when it comes to creating meaningful change. I personally struggled for more than a decade, you know, feeling like I was making progress, but really wasn’t creating meaningful change. And so that really drew me to more of the coaching model where we’re actually looking at creating those meaningful shifts that create lasting change and sustainability.

Lisa Lewis Miller  9:08  

Well, I love that story. And I imagine for so many people who are considering a career change, hearing you talk through burnout, as the impetus for thinking about a lot of those pivots, probably resonates and makes a ton of sense. And I’m curious when you first got started with your coaching work. Did you know at that point that you wanted to be focusing in on overwhelm and burnout or did it take a little while to realize that that was your your deepest area of service and gifting?

Kim Irving  9:40  

A little bit of both. So I also have a passion for working with highly sensitive people. I myself am highly sensitive and that was another missing component and a piece of my story that explained a lot of the overwhelm and the anxiety and challenges I was experiencing. But as I was doing that work, it just didn’t feel big enough. Like, I think that there’s a lot of challenges that actually affect women across the board because of our social conditioning. And the model that most organizations have, which is very patriarchal, and how we are conditioned to navigate those environments. And I usually see women fall into one of two camps. One is like, the more like, ultra feminine, like, you know, being the people pleaser helper, nice girl that doesn’t speak up and like, say, what she thinks or share her opinions kind of holds back, or the hyper masculine woman, it’s like, you know, if I want to succeed, I’ve got to be assertive, I’ve got to be aggressive, I’ve got to be protect confidence at all times, I can’t ever show any weakness and like very focus on like the drive and the achievement factor, which both of those can lead to burnout or lack of fulfillment, I see. The women that are more on the masculine side of things in the in the hyper drive and achievement focus, tend to burn out more quickly. Whereas the more feminine, softer just feel more like unfulfilled and like they’re not like tapping into their their full potential. So a lot of my clients do happen to be highly sensitive, I think I just tend to draw that type of client in, I would say about 50% of them aren’t aware that they’re highly sensitive when they come to me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  11:32  

While the idea of highly sensitive people, or HSPs, is that a concept that Career Clarity Show listeners are definitely familiar with both of you read the book, but also because we have had melody wilding on who is also such a great speaker on HSPs on the podcast twice, I think she’s one of the only repeat guests we’ve ever had for the podcast. So this is absolutely a space where if you haven’t heard of the idea of a highly sensitive person, or if you have, you’re going to be like welcome company. And it’s a really safe space to explore what that looks like and feels like and how that shows up in your work. Now, Kim, I’m curious about the concept of burnout. And these two different types of, let’s say characterizations for experiences that one can have with work, and then with relating to work, and then this with burnout. When you’re supporting folks with recognizing the burnout, and then starting to figure out how to how to cope, how to recover, how to change the things that are within your control to make your situation better. What is your approach look like? And how does it differ based on which of the two kind of manifestations or experiences someone’s going through? Yeah,

Kim Irving  12:59  

it’s a great question. So one of the first things I really try to identify with folks that come to me is, I’m really big on the mind body connection. That’s been a huge passion for mine for for years, and years and years. And what I see is that people are usually really good at targeting one or the others, people are really good at, like, you know, being really mindful of their thoughts and their mindset. And like affirmations, which side note, like, affirmations really only go so far and aren’t necessarily like rewiring the brain. And, you know, if you’re saying something that you totally don’t feel is true, your body’s gonna say, like, That’s bullshit. And like, it’s not like it really like you’re absorbing it, or it really lands. And then some people are completely unaware of the thoughts and how they’re impacting them, or even people think, but they’re very aware of their thoughts. And they’re like, I’m, that I don’t do that. And then they’re like, oh, you know, it’s unconscious. And that’s why it’s so hard to detect without that outside person giving you that outside in perspective, like what’s actually going on. And other people are really good at managing, like the physical side of things like like things that help balance the nervous system and the stress response, like exercising, eating, well meditating, things that bring them into that more settled state. So I try to diagnose like, where they’re potentially their biggest gaps are. Another area that we really look at is their communication style and their boundaries because that’s a really big factor of like, where people feel like they’re stuck and that they can’t like make changes based on you know, I can’t do that because my boss won’t like that. Or this is just the culture of the workplace like I spoke To a woman today she’s like, Yeah, like my job description. It’s like very clear, like eight hours a day, but everyone works 12 to 15 hours a day. So I’m working 12 to 15 hours a day, well, now she’s having anxiety attacks and can’t sleep, and she’s not exercising, it’s like, it’s just not a sustainable model. So it’s like, we have to be willing to take a stand and know like what we will and won’t stand for. And it starts with having really candid professional conversations with our leaders, our supervisors about where we’re at, and figuring out a pathway forward where everyone can win. And sometimes workplaces, you’re able to do that. And sometimes you can’t. But I hate to see people walk away from a career that’s been lucrative and started out really satisfying and fulfilling, because they just didn’t have the skills or the confidence or the courage to broach those conversations and see if there’s an opportunity. So some people just kind of run away.

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:03  

Well, I think that that’s it’s such an important point that your success in life is probably very correlated with your willingness to have uncomfortable, scary conversations. That can I almost wondering if we take a step back from that? If someone’s feeling willing to have a conversation with their supervisor about, you know, here’s my situation, here’s how I’m feeling. But they feel like they have no idea what would fix it? How do you help someone start assessing to what they should be asking for what they should be changing, to feel like they can recover? Because I know so often, when you’re in a state of burnout, it feels all consuming and it feels like it saps away your problem solving resourcefulness?

Kim Irving  16:53  

That’s so true. Yeah. So this, this answer is twofold. One is, hopefully there’s people listening to this, that maybe aren’t quite at that precipice yet to like, start recognizing the warning signs. Like, if you’re starting to have the thoughts like, wow, I think I might be burning out. And then you just kind of like, no, no, no, it’s not that bad. But like you’ve noticed changes to like your sleep habits, or how often you’re breaking down in tears at work, or, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you’re snapping at your loved ones more than you normally would, because we’re all human, we all snap sometimes. But if you’re feeling like you’re really on edge, or like you can’t be present, with with the people in your life. Take that as a serious sign. I think it’s true. Most people don’t actually know the signs or believe in the severity of the signs until they’ve actually gone through at least one or two burnouts. And then they’re like, Oh, I got it, now I get where this is going. But if you feel like you’re on the precipice, start taking the time now to, like, have those conversations around your time. And if you are more in that, further, more for further along stage of burnout, where you’re like struggling to get out of bed and get through the day. I think like the first step is just giving yourself some some space, it’s unfortunate to have to like get to that stage. But when you get to that stage, like really, the only thing you can do, is to take some time away. And you know, if you’re in that really severe stage of burnout, a three day weekend isn’t going to do it. But if that’s all you can do right now, at least start there. Because like you said, you don’t have the mental clarity or the resources or problem solving like that part of your brain is just like it’s like numbed out like it’s it’s fried. And so it can be really hard. I would say like, if you can talk to someone that can do some of the thinking for you and help you work through that, whether that’s like a friend that you trust that, you know, also has a successful career can help you kind of talk through maybe some things that they’ve tried with their employer, that that’s been helpful for them or a partner that you can talk it through with and help them help you come up with a plan or work with a coach.

Lisa Lewis Miller  19:24  

Certainly, it sounds like one of the things that you’re saying is that if you’re on the precipice, you’re experiencing burnout, and you feel like you don’t know what you need, that creating space. So getting some sort of separation between yourself and the work and then talking to people who love you and care about you and who are probably safer than talking to your immediate supervisor are great first steps to get a little bit of the the separation to start to get back to the clarity on what you’re needing. Right now.

Kim Irving  20:00  

Get more perspective on the situation. And then it’s always more helpful when you can go into those conversations with a boss or an employer and be able to communicate what you need, I would say take the pressure off of like needing to have it completely figured out. Like, it might just be like, you know, I think if there’s like, too much on your plate right now, and you’re really struggling, it’s important to have those those frank conversations that some people are afraid to have, like I had a client that was also highly sensitive, and had struggled with anxiety and depression through a lot of her career and had work worked her way up to a certain status, but the culture of her company was like everyone was stretched really thin and had a lot on their plate. And she used to really struggle with setting boundaries, because she just felt like she needed to help everyone. And didn’t feel like she could ask for extra help for her supervisor, but that’s what we identified that she really needed was like, I just, there’s just no way that all of us can, can successfully carry this mission through, you know, at this level and make this deadline. So even though she didn’t think that there was any possibility, but like, it could work, and they could get extra support or extra manpower, she she broached the conversation with her supervisor, and she actually got it. And she started saying no more to other people. And it was really beautiful, a beautiful moment for her because she actually created a win for her, she created a win for her team. And she created a wind for her company. And I think sometimes people are just afraid to ask, and the worst that can happen is, is a no. And she actually ended up getting promoted shortly after that. Once she started implementing more boundaries, which is another, I think people are afraid that like, I have to say yes to everything, because I have to be a team player or show that I’m willing to like get in the mud with them. And it’s not necessarily the case, your job, especially if you’re in a higher up position is to be a leader and to supervise and manage other people and fast up in where you can. But we have to be realistic about where we’re at. And where we’re at right now with with COVID. And the current state of things. It’s like, it’s hard because everyone’s feeling burnt out to a certain extent, and organizations are stressed. And I think it’s specially if you’re highly sensitive, or just an empathetic individual. And I think women tend to be more empathetic and aware, emotionally intelligent of like, what’s going on. Like, we’d can take a lot of that home with us. I think that self care is so important like taking the 20 minutes between work and home to meditate or even just sit in your car, in silence to decompress and just give your your system a chance to settle.

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:55  

Well sounding like some of the most common things that you see that people need to support themselves through burnout, our boundaries, and better care of oneself. And I imagine this is probably even more amplified when you look at it as HSPs. And what highly sensitive people in particular need. What are some of the boundaries that folks need, most often, that they’re most hesitant to ask for?

Kim Irving  23:23  

I think the biggest boundary that people have a hard time studying is not stepping in to help. I think women and highly sensitive people are just wired like they just care, like they want to help they see other people struggling, whether that’s a co worker, or the organization. And it can be really hard to say no. And I feel like that’s the hardest situation. When you’ve got a coworker coming up to you. They’re frantic, you know, they’re having a hard time at home or like their kid has, you know, some sort of behavioral health issue and they’re stressed out and you’re like, you just want to jump in and help and it doesn’t actually do any good. If you’re already stretched too thin. It’s kind of counterproductive. And if you care about your career and your your trajectory, like you do have to make sure that you’re you’re taking care of your priorities first and your mental health first. It’s so cliche but the whole thing about like your own oxygen oxygen mask first. Like it’s a cliche for a reason. And, you know, one example of a client I was working with that was really struggling with this found a way to say like, I’m not going to be able to do that for you. But if you’re having questions, I’ll be available at this time next week. If you want to review do it really quickly. And that felt like a created distance for her where she wasn’t taking on responsibility as much as she would love to, she had her own things that she had to do. And she, you know, we worked a lot on like her beliefs of like prioritizing herself, and, and seeing the positive impacts on her performance at work and and her connection to others on our physical health when we started implementing them, I think once you start seeing those results, it it starts to get a little easier, it’s when you don’t have the evidence of that first, because you’ve always operated in this this one particular way that it’s harder to do that. So I would say that’s probably the hardest for people.

Lisa Lewis Miller  25:42  

Do you feel like most people know, if they’re an overhead Hopper, if they’re saying yes to too many requests, and that that’s the cause of the burnout. I think

Kim Irving  25:57  

people have a sense, but most people that I know, they’re like, I’m too nice, I’m always jumping in, I have no boundaries. And they just don’t really know like what to do about it. And part of it is like, an identity. You know, there’s especially women were socialized. Like, that’s a very positive trait in the way that we’re socialized to be the helpers, one always jumping in to be the martyr the Savior. And yeah, it’s just not that effective. And typically ends up taking away from your own performance, and, and opportunities for promotion, or, you know, your ongoing success. And it takes away from a lot of the fulfillment and joy and meaningful activities, that most women that I work with, you know, are really craving think, you know, they’ve said, like, you know, I climb the ladder, I’ve worked really hard. And I’m realizing like, this isn’t the life that I really want to live, you know, I want to have a personal life, I want to take care of my health, I have hobbies and interests. And I just don’t want to work this way. But because of a lot of the ways that it’s it’s set up, we just don’t have this model of how we can be in the world and in the workplace. But I think that’s starting to change.

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:19  

Well, hearing you talk about models and examples, and how people who identify as women are often socialized, there are certain traits that are desirable that we want to see more of, and there are certain traits that are less desirable. What’s the what’s the biggest key to helping someone overcome some of that socialization, when it’s it’s not serving an adaptive purpose in their lives anymore? It because I’m hearing you talk about that often people have a lot of awareness that what they’re doing isn’t working. And I’m sure all your clients are smarty pants. And so there’s probably a certain amount of cognitive dissonance and frustration of like, I know, these behaviors haven’t been serving me. And I keep choosing them. How do you support folks in kind of breaking the socialization link to feel like you’re not beholden to those old patterns and those old habits anymore? Well,

Kim Irving  28:19  

it all really boils down to fear fear of being different, especially if they’ve achieved success being a certain way, there’s a lot of fear of changing that, because it’s easy to make it a causal relationship, like I achieved the success that I had. Because I was the helper the one and that’s actually not true. Research shows that people that are more like that are actually over time less likely to get promoted over their peers. So it really boils down to getting underneath, and seeing what more of the unconscious beliefs are that are shaping the behavior, which, I mean, I’m not, I’m not practicing therapy anymore. But it does help to sometimes contextualize like, through different reflective activities about like, you know, what was modeled to me as a kid. And I’ve seen people either say, like, you know, this was the model that I had. So I became like that, or I had a very different model. And my parents, like, didn’t work hard, or we weren’t very successful. So I made sure I was the exact opposite of x. I didn’t want to be like them. So you know, it’s kind of understanding, like, where did this conditioning happen? And like, how was I shaped? And sometimes even just recognizing and being able to point to it and being like, oh, yeah, it doesn’t really make a lot of sense that I would just like, take that, and then live the rest of my life that way. But a lot of the times when we’re getting these messages, especially in like early childhood, from like zero to seven years of age, we don’t really have the filters in our brain to filter out like what we accept is true. What we don’t, so a lot of us, that’s where they come up with the word programming, like we just kind of get these like mental models in our brain. And then that’s just kind of what we’re operating. That’s our operating software that we’re going off of in our worldview. And so I would say listening to podcasts, or you know, or working with a coach or therapist, someone that can like help you expose you to different types of perceiving the world and your place in the workplace is a good place to start and having someone that can guide you through some of the fears and give you some new habits and behaviors to try. You know, so you have that, like accountability and that support, because it can be scary to do something new, especially if you’ve never set a boundary. Like that can feel really scary. And you know, it’s uncomfortable. And the accountability is such an important piece of that, like, knowing that someone’s in your corner and has your back is makes all the difference. Because when we’re trying to do something new and scary and uncomfortable, like having a difficult conversation. Like we’re always going to default to our comfort zone, even if it’s not serving us. But when you have someone else in your corner, and that could doesn’t have to be a coach, it could be, you know, another co worker, somewhat like someone else, that’s a friend that’s been in your shoes, or is somewhere you want to go. It’s like how did they do it and like have their support and so that you have some of that accountability, as you’re building new evidence for yourself about what’s possible, and how you can exist in the world. Let’s say having exposing yourself to ideas, people that are doing it differently than you to expand your worldview of like, oh, okay, like maybe this is possible, like the four minute mile wasn’t a four minute mile until one person ran it. And then everyone started running, maybe not everyone, but way more people started running four minute miles, because someone else made it possible. So I would say expose yourself if you know where else to start to start exposing yourself to other people’s perceptions and ways of of navigating this.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:12  

It sounds like finding some really good role models for yourself. This is a you know, a badass professional, who has risen up in their career. And who treats others the way that I want to treat others, but also looks like they have a personal life and looks like they’re happy and looks like things feel fairly sustainable in their position. Being able to look at someone else doing that whether it’s in your organization or another organization sounds like a hugely powerful mental model to anchor yourself to and say, Okay, well, if they could do it, I could at least do part of that. Yeah. Now, Kim, let me ask you if I want to take us in a sort of funny direction here. So you’re talking about so many of the behaviors that are not adaptive for us as adult professionals in a workplace, stem from societal conditioning, and programming and messages and things that we received when we were we, you know, decades and decades ago? So I’m curious, and maybe this is asking you to put your your therapy and social work hat back on for just a moment to humor me. If we know that these behaviors can manifest in ways that are really not healthy and not helpful in adults, what can we as adults do to influence and impact the little people in our lives? Like how can we be showing up differently or modeling things differently for them, so that this isn’t just a a generational trauma, you know, that is passed down? Year over year generation over generation in a family, but it’s something that you can help equip future generations not to have to struggle with in the same way?

Kim Irving  34:14  

I love this question. It starts with you being the one brave enough and courageous enough to create the shifts within yourself. So if you find yourself struggling with these things, if you’re someone that feels like you can’t set boundaries at work, or is taking work home with you and is saying like Yeah, yeah, I’ll read to you soon after I you know, just got to finish up some emails. It, it takes it’s an act of courage to heal the lineage of trauma, if you want to call it of like overworking or even you know, some of that comes from like scarcity of fear that there’s not going to be enough money or not going to be enough work like if we were to trace it far enough back. So So it starts with you having the courage to get really honest with yourself and get yourself the tools and resources and support to start making the changes because that is how you you I mean, you are modeling whether you realize it or not, you know, I, I’m old enough that I remember when there weren’t cell phones. And it’s so bizarre Now you just see like little kids, you know, like trying to, like, do social media or take it like they’re always on their phones, because they see the adults always on their phones, like we’re always modeling, like it or not. So really it it really is about setting healthy example, by literally being at yourself, you have to be the embodiment of the example that you would want your kid for your kids.

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:50  

I love that. Well, Kim, imagine there’s somebody listening to this episode of the podcast, who is like, Listen, I’m with you, conceptually. But I don’t even know how to start with implementing my first boundary, this feels like it would be such a disruption. I think everybody would hate it, I think I’d be fired and lose my job. And they’re just there with you conceptually. But they’re, when they think about the execution, their brain starts to catastrophize everything and it feels big and scary and impossible. What advice or what encouragement would you give to someone who’s feeling that way?

Kim Irving  36:29  

I would say start with something super small and almost harmless. So say someone says, Hey, we’re hosting a potluck for the office on Friday, what are you going to bring? You might say like, you know, I’m not going to be free that day, I’m sorry, thank you so much for the invite, you know, like start with something small. And if that feels too big, you know, start with something like at home where like, someone normally asks you to do something, and like, I’m actually not going to be available to do that today. You know, and just starting with, like places where it feels safer. So you can build up, it’s almost like a muscle, you kind of have to build it up. And like you gain courage and strength, as you realize that the sky doesn’t totally fall down. There might be like deeper level fears that happen like because not everyone’s gonna like the boundaries, someone might be really upset that you’re not participating in the potluck. And there’s usually like some some inner work and confidence and self worth, that needs to be in place. Because sometimes people don’t set the boundary because they can’t cope with the idea of someone else being upset with them. But it’s not really our job to manage other people’s emotions or feelings about what we are, we can and can’t do. And ultimately, we are responsible for ourselves. And that might sound inconvenient, but I actually think it’s super empowering to know that we actually get to be in control of of what we

Lisa Lewis Miller  38:11  

are available for. Kim, I feel like you just had your mic drop moment there. But we are not responsible for other people’s emotional responses. That feels like such a huge truth bomb. And if you believe that, right, if you buy into that all the rest of taking the actions and asking for the things that you need to meet your own needs become so much easier, and so much more seamless. So I love that. Now, Kim, if somebody has been listening to our conversation today, and they’ve been loving the advice that you’ve shared and loving all the perspective that you’ve been bringing to the table and they want to learn more about you and the work that you do. Where can they go to find out more?

Kim Irving  39:01  

Yes, there’s a couple of different ways that they can connect with me. My website is just www dot Kim irving.com. also free to email me I love hearing from people and just knowing what landed for you so I can be reached at Kim at Kim irving.com.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:22  

Amazing. Well, Kim, thank you so much for coming on the show today to talk about all things burnout, boundary and resilience.

Kim Irving  39:32  

Yeah, thank you so much. It was really fun.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:41  

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