Episode 115: Negotiating Salaries with Claudia Miller

On today’s episode of the show, we are talking about something that we don’t talk about enough – getting paid what you are worth. Now, when it comes to thinking about career change, it can be really intimidating to think about what you should be making in your next job. Usually, for most career changers, you’re moving into an area where you have a little bit less experience than you would have had if you just carried on through your same corporate ladder, marching up to the next promotion. 

When you’re making a pivot, it can feel really difficult to know how to position what your experience is worth. For so many of us, there is a huge fear that can pop up that if you make a move into a new industry or a new job function then you’ll have to start back at the bottom of the ladder. If you’ve ever had any of those worries and fears, I am so excited for you to hear today’s episode of the Career Clarity Show. We are talking to Claudia Miller, a career coach and negotiation expert, about how you can set yourself up for success in making a job transition.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Claudia Miller
• Instagram: @claudiamiller
• LinkedIn: Claudia T Miller
• Podcast: Roadmap To The Executive Suite
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

Subscribe to The Career Clarity Show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and Google Play.

And, follow The Career Clarity Show on Facebook and Instagram — and sign up below to receive emails when new episodes come out!

Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career.

Hello, and welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m Lisa Miller, your host and I am delighted that you are back with us today. On today’s episode of the show, we are talking about something we don’t talk about enough, but we should talk about, which is making sure that you are paid what you are worth. Now, when it comes to thinking about career change, it can be really intimidating to think about what you should be making in your next job. Usually, for most career changers, you’re moving into an area where you have a little bit less experience than you would have had you just carried on through your same corporate ladder, you know, marching up to the next promotion. And so when you’re making a pivot, it can feel really difficult to know how to position yourself what your experience is worth. And worse. For so many of us there is a huge fear that can pop up that if you make a move into a new industry or a new job function, that then you’re going to have to start over at the bottom of the ladder. So if you’ve ever had any of those worries and fears, I am so excited for you to hear today’s episode of the Career Clarity Show, we are talking to a career coach and negotiation expert about how you can set yourself up for success in making a job transition. So if you have never negotiated before, and it scares the crap out of you, you’re not sure that you would ever do it. This episode is for you. If you have negotiated before and it didn’t quite go the way that you wanted. This episode is for you. And if you’ve negotiated before, and it was wildly successful, and you want to keep working on your confidence, and your strategy to keep moving on up to make sure that you are always getting paid exactly what you’re worth. This episode is definitely for you today too. I am delighted to bring on to the show today. Someone who by her last name could be considered to be family. Claudia Miller. Claudia is a career coach who helps career driven professionals get the jobs they want at salaries they love up to $50,000 in salary increases. She’s been featured in Forbes MSNBC, and Business Insider named her one of the top 23 most innovative career coaches of 2020. And she’s been on 40 podcasts alone this year. So you know, people are taking her seriously. When she’s not helping clients, she can be found Latin dancing on a beach somewhere with her husband, Claudia, welcome to the Career Clarity Show. 

Claudia Miller  

Thanks for having me, Lisa. I’m so excited to be here. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  

Well, I am delighted to have you with us. And as a fellow Miller, I am so curious, what got you interested in career coaching and the negotiation and salary pieces of this work?

Claudia Miller  3:24  

Yeah, so I got into learning all these strategies and tactics that I know now because I consider myself an ambitious, or career driven person. So I initially started this journey trying to figure out for myself, I wanted to know, you know, how do you get those, you know, 3040 $50,000 salary increases? How can I get to making over six figures, you know, by the age of 25? Like, how do they do it because I found myself, you know, checking off the boxes. I, you know, got grades in school, I even had a full ride scholarship from Bill and Melinda Gates that’s full ride pay for my master’s, I did internships, I volunteered, I was participate in extracurricular activities, I did everything and then I graduated, apply to jobs, and I have no interviews. And at the time, my friend updated my resume, and she is not a professional resume writer. So therefore, I definitely agree that that’s probably why I didn’t get any responses or interviews because I wasn’t showcasing or selling myself through the resume and therefore, it didn’t seem appealing, especially when in such a competitive market. And I found you know, I only received one interview, and I interviewed and got the job. It didn’t pay that well. So I just, you know, I felt frustrated and almost lied to because they told me if I did everything right, you know, I was gonna get a great job and make good money. And while my peers are making like 15 20k more than I was, I was in an industry or where I really wanted to get into I just knew that I had to change my strategy clearly going to school getting those internships participating and extracurriculars wasn’t going to be enough. And I needed to learn this other side of networking and being a career professional. And that’s when I started on my journey. And I personally invested 1000s of dollars, and it took years, you know, working with career coaches, resume writers, courses, networking, reaching out to people. And then finally, you know, few years later, I was able to successfully negotiate my salary of $30,000. And I did it multiple times. Not that just that one time, but also I changed industries, multiple times, and I was able to do it successfully. And, you know, I wanted to help, you know, my friends and my peers, and, you know, the applied strategies got the same results. So that’s when I noticed that I had something going on. And I first started, you know, trialing out this this work across various industries, what about levels of experience, you know, mid level or late career, and the results always kept coming the same, they were getting, and they actually were able to get $50,000 salary increase. And I even had a client get up to $75,000 with like, stock options, bone sign on bonus, relocation fees. So that’s when I you know, while managing and, you know, working my career, I started my business as a career coach helping other professionals do the same.

Lisa Lewis Miller  6:26  

Amazing, I love stories of people who just want to help and support people and help their friends and letting their natural abilities grow from there. So I was sure people who are listening to this are saying, a $50,000 increase. Okay, Claudia, tell me more. So what was the situation? I feel like if I biggest skeptical podcast listener, so often, I’d be thinking like, what was that person making $14 an hour at McDonald’s, and then they got a job. So give us give us the background.

Claudia Miller  7:00  

So I mean, from my personal background, and I can also share some of my clients. It’s not like, I know, some clients say, Well, what is she making already 200,250. I mean, it’s like a small portion of it, I was making like 42,000 and got an offer for $75,000. In an industry I never had experience and I did work on From then on, I pivoted to like the state federal side, and then pivoted more on the private insurance side, and was making our own six figures already 100k plus. And for my client, and this is within like, less than five years, it’s not like, I spent 1520 years to get another $30,000 salaries, this is probably within two and a half years of getting the last job and I went to the next one because I was ready. And my at the time, my manager wasn’t promoting me, they’re kind of like that mentality of you put in your work, and you wait until the person above you gets promoted, or retires, and then we promote you. So, you know, I understand there’s methodology from some, you know, professionals out there. But you know, I’m not going to leave my career in someone else’s hands or waiting for that person to retire or waiting for them to get another job. So I knew I had to promote myself. And that’s when I started job searching and gave myself a $30,000 salary increase. But my clients have done the same thing. Like they one of my clients, you know, had been out of work for six months, for personal reasons, was going through a lot of medical work. So she was not able to work. And she left a really great job. And she was at the time making 92,000. And, you know, she came back and started job searching, she couldn’t get interviews. They’re like, Well, why were you out of work for so long? And she didn’t want to go into tell them what was happening personally. And honestly, I feel like it’s sometimes it’s not their business, you’re here to interview me, can I do the job now what I do in my personal time, or what I took a break for. So we work together. And she ended up getting a job offer for 138,000. Even though they told her the job only paid up to 130. So it was way above the salary range. And she still had bonus and commission stock options as well. So she was able to do this successfully. And it’s, most people think that negotiation starts when they give you the job offer. Or maybe when they ask you your salary during an interview, but prepare for salary, especially if you want to make those big jumps, 3050 or even 75,000. You have to start from the beginning, how you brand yourself, how do you even brand yourself in your LinkedIn, your resume? How well do you track your achievements? And if you don’t have achievements, how can you start making those achievements so you can get those? start documenting them, you’re getting some company insights, you’re doing really great research, not just you know, looking at a company website or looking at Glassdoor there’s even more research to dive into so that the time you are interviewing, you already prepped and you’re one of the top sought after candidates because you’ve already been preparing for quite some time now. And when I mean quite some time, it could be like, you know at least one or two weeks and then I Ken is just can stand a chance because they’ve all maybe they’ve practiced or prepare for this interview two to three days before. Well, you’ve already put in at least one or two weeks, just time isn’t on their side. And by the time they’re interviewing, you’re hitting on every single point that the interviewer is just saying, Oh, my God, Lisa is great. Like, she’s exactly we’ve been looking for, like, she has a skill set that it’s hard to hire for. She knows exactly what we need some of the resources she actually has experienced, or she at least has some industry knowledge. And she knows where we want to get to, and she’ll be the perfect person, like, we want her on board, like no one even comes close, and therefore automatically gets you that higher salary range offer. And by the time they offer you, that’s already a 30 40k leap. And then I still teach my clients how to get an additional 10 to 15k on top of that, and that’s how it adds up to like, you know, 30 4050, and even up to $75,000, as well. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:54  

Huh, got it amazing. And I think every single one of us wants to have that experience of being, you know, the person who’s being interviewed for a job. But having the hiring manager already on your side, having the recruiter already rooting for you, having them feel as if you have read their minds, and you’re the dream candidate to fill exactly the need that they have. However, in order to do that, just like you’re talking about, it takes a lot of thoughtfulness and preparation. So let’s start at the beginning. If somebody wants to come across like they are a mind reader, and totally knock the socks off of their headhunter or the hiring manager for the role that they want. How do you teach people to even start thinking that way?

Claudia Miller  11:44  

So I like to start with clients showing them what is the end in mind? It’s I always say like, almost like job searching or building your career is like building a house? Do you want to build a house? Do you want to build a townhome? Do you want to build a mansion, like what are you trying to build here? So and you know, some people might say, I don’t know, I’m just starting on my career maybe been doing this for 510 years, I kind of sorta like it. Not sure if I love it. Not sure if I want to be VP of operations or chief medical officer or chief marketing officer or Chief Technology Officer, I that’s still a little vague. But maybe I want to go and become like an executive or maybe just be senior director, I don’t need to be an executive level. Whatever that ending goal, you think it is where you start identifying and started looking at it, we have so many misconceptions of saying, oh, executives never spend time with family, they, you know, they usually are working to the bone. And they never spend time and they never enjoy the money that they’re making. yet. I’ve had, you know, I have my podcast to where I’ve interviewed executives, and they’re like, no, I get to, you know, spend time with my kids, I get to pick them up, I get to attend their soccer, baseball games, like I just prepare this and created this persona and made sure that I worked with a company that supported my life, and I still made sure to deliver on my work. So it’s really having that end in mind. And once you have a clarity of saying, Okay, this sounds like something I might be interested in. I clearly at this point, you’re not going to have all the experience, but it’s just sounds like that lifestyle, the pay on the responsibilities sound aligned. And what I mean by that is if you’re an introvert and you’re looking to become an executive, where you’re gonna be doing press conferences, and you know, networking and schmoozing with people, that would probably be a horrible job for you, it probably make you even hyperventilate or give you anxiety. So making sure that those jobs are aligned, at least with your personality, and then working backwards. What is that career progression that they’ve worked on? You know, how long were they there? Do they have certifications? What kind of degrees do they have? And again, it gives us clarity, because one of the things I’ve seen people do is they walk around with a shame and burden for months, and sometimes years, I have clients tell me, you know, I know I should be getting my master’s degree, my MBA, I just haven’t had time. And it’s something I’ve been wanting to do for these past few years. Or I’m trying to be a pivot into a project manager role. I don’t have a PMP I know that I need that I just don’t have the time. And they’re just walking around with this. And then once I help them do the the coursework, or the kind of like the exercise that I just told you about, they start realizing that a lot of them don’t even have a PMP or they don’t have an MBA, or maybe they have an initial an MBA for these specific industries, but they can still do that same role in a different industry, and be able to still get paid the same have the same responsibilities and without having to get an MBA. So they have all this relief and pressure and saying, I can’t believe for these past few years, I’ve been thinking and feeling guilty that I didn’t get or spend this amount of time and I realized I don’t really need it and I feel free. Now I can focus on like what’s next. And having that clarity really helps. And then from then on. Now that you have job titles, really pinpointing and I call it created like a company hitlist. You want to be intentional What kind of companies you think you want to go into? Now it might be like, you know, 3040 companies? And it could be like, I don’t know, I’d be interested in Spotify, target Facebook, maybe submit service companies? I don’t know them by name, but I’d be interested in that as well. So it’s really identifying these companies diving into the true research, what is their retention rates? Have they been growing? What are they trying to accomplish in the next six to 12 months? You know, how is the industry performing? Is this a good culture for you? What is the pay look like? And all of a sudden, you’ll start seeing trends, oh, this company sounds great. But they actually don’t even pay that much. I’ve had really bad negative reviews. So now that list of 30 now becomes 10 to 15. Now we know that it aligns with everything that we’re looking for. And now we start building a network. Those are the people that are going to give us insights into the role, the company the pain points, and also the salary. One thing that I know is, when you’re trying to figure out how much does this job pay? And for example, project manager, if you look on Glassdoor, it probably says something between 50 and 120,000. And at that point is will What? How do I know what to ask for? Well, when you’re networking with professionals in the industry, or within the company, they’ll be able to tell you, hey, this company, and it’s not like you’re asking appear, because they will never more than likely they’re not going to share your salary. But you can reach out two to three levels above. And then say, you know, do you remember like, Can you tell me a little bit more was it is a more range for a salary for a project manager in this industry. And they might tell you well, back in the day, when I was a project manager, this is how much I used to make. Because this, okay, it was a role that they did maybe 510, even 15 years ago. Or they might say, you know, what I know what I used to get paid is very different. But I do note that what I pay my team is anywhere between 90 and 110, we give on the company, we give a 10 20% bonus at the end of the year, because we’re a public company, we offer anywhere between 50 to 100, stock options, or we have an employee stock purchase program. And then now you have a smaller range. And then you can ask, Well, what makes you or what makes a candidate get offered 110. Then they give you the answers. It’s like add getting the answers to the homework, or you know, the test. So now you’re getting a lot of this information. But again, that takes time diving in knowing where to look for who to network, how to network with them getting on a call with them have questions to ask. But that’s at a high level, what it looks like that by time you go to interview and preparing your resume your cover letter, your LinkedIn profile, you already know exactly what to say what they’re looking for. And now your branding is on point. And you also know how to prepare for the interview so that we touch on those points, and you become that dream candidate and that top sought after candidate

Lisa Lewis Miller  17:52  

I love so many of the different points that you’ve outlined in there, I think the idea of going to somebody who is two or three rungs above where you would want to come in on their ladder is such a smart strategy. Because you’re absolutely right, that it can get really uncomfortable with peers, especially if you don’t have a relationship established. And even maybe sometimes more if you do have a relationship established to share that kind of personal information. But when it’s somebody higher up, they usually have the information and there’s not the same sense of, of distress or conflict of interest in sharing it. So you know, it’s a wonderful way to think about that. But now let me ask you this, once you’ve done the research about what makes somebody a top of the range kind of a hire, how do you help them translate that information, knowledge into branding, positioning and all the professional materials that somebody will encounter for you before you even get to an interview or a negotiation stage?

Claudia Miller  18:52  

Yeah, so from like a candidate perspective, doing that research now like myself, and then you to Lisa, like, we have a good insight into the industry candidates. I know what’s very cliche and generic, I’m like, Okay, what is your biggest weakness? Oh, I care too much. I work too much I work, I bring my home, my work to home, and I need to get better at saying no, I mean, these are very concrete. And then we know this because we’re in the other side, and we hear over and over and over again. So kind of providing like, okay, based on the information that you did research, let’s extract all this information that we know is generic, and everyone else is saying, Now, what are we left with? And from then on? Do we higher rank them? What are the higher you know, what is the hardest thing that they’re higher for? If you’re a project manager that has technical expertise or has a technical background and you happen to be transitioning from like a technical industry, then we can we could highlight that as an asset. That’s leverage right there. We’re not going to highlight that you’re great at you know, cross collaboration, or maybe that like you have a technical expertise that can translate into business. And be able to deliver on the project on time with very minimal errors. You know, that could be that can be translated to something very different. So it’s really understanding that creating that hierarchy. And again, the more we talk to people, the more information we’re hat gathering, and then we start seeing trends. Okay, everyone keeps saying this, like, it’s really hard to hire for this. And if you keep hearing that you can say, Well, can you please specify what do you mean by this, you know, might be like, Oh, you know, it’s really hard to hire someone that you know, is technical, but also has soft skills? Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by soft skills? Do you mean, you know, how to lead a team how to own the room? How to identify underlying factors that might delay the project? Can you you know, convey that a little bit more, as for examples, and then you start getting even more deeper, a lot of people just do surface level research, where we’re not digging in deeper and talking to enough people, you’ll start seeing those trends or those same conversations. And then you can say, you know, I keep hearing that, can you give me a little bit more of an example of that? So if I were to say, I’m great at, you know, working well with others, and I’m great teamwork, and I’m collaborative, would that suffice? or What else? Do you mean? Oh, yeah, no, we’re actually goes deeper, we’re, here’s some examples. Or here’s some of the challenges I’ve come across in my team, we, you know, we deal with a, b, and c. And it’s really hard for me, especially as a manager, because I have to step in when I feel like I shouldn’t have and I’m trying to build these specific skill sets. And that’s one of the things that I noticed hardest to hire for is having someone that can already do this. And then you can position yourself as a team lead or position yourself as the most, maybe prospected, manager director, because you have these skill sets, and all of a sudden become that team lead, instead of you come in into a team that’s already been developed, and somebody already is getting ahead of the game, because you already know they’re not they’re not. They’re not meeting these specific skill sets.

Lisa Lewis Miller  21:51  

I’m curious, when people are trying to create a really compelling personal brand and narrative. What are some of the biggest places that you see individuals struggle, in translating all this information, all this great research that they’ve done into how they actually talk about themselves?

Claudia Miller  22:09  

Yeah, they are very passive and task oriented, you know, they manage projects, they manage staff of seven, even if they they might sometimes not even say the number, they don’t track any metrics, or they feel like they don’t have any metrics. At this point, I’ve worked across various industries, and you know, very various different industries. And I hear people say, Well, my role is not sales or marketing. So there aren’t any metrics, I promise you, there’s always metrics that you can that you can kind of track. And for example, I had a client where they were a new software developer. He’s like, I just started, I have two years of experience. And I I’ve only worked on like two projects, like, Okay, tell me, what is your What is your customer segmentation? Is it people in their 20s? Or 30s? Is it 40s and 50s 60s? And 70s? Like, who are you targeting with? You created an app? How many downloads Have there been in that app? You know, who are the comparison between men and women? What about the age range? That’s information that you’re painting colors of saying you created an app created an app targeted specifically to 20s and 30s, with a 75% of women being iPad users of the app, and we’ve been able to acquire and work with different agencies that target the specific customer segmentations, that’s very different than I just created an app. So people would never give themself enough justice. There. They don’t want to brag in their resume. And that’s the point of the resume, you’re supposed to brag, and I promise you, you will never brag enough or be salesy enough. I read resumes, you’re like, sorry, I know, I sound braggy. And I was like, honestly, you, you are not even bragging at all. I will pass up your resume, because it doesn’t stand out. And that’s why you haven’t been getting interviews. So it’s really been able to extract yourself from what you do on an everyday basis, because a lot of, you know, professionals you’ve been working in your job for, you know, years at this point. And you only know what you know, as an outsider, I can say, Well, you know, you’re doing the job of two to three people, right? Most people in those positions, don’t do A, B and C. Oh, really? I didn’t know that. And then when you said you worked on this project, can you Let’s dive deeper. And one of the exercises I have clients do is ask themselves, so what? So you build an app? So what why should I care? So does every other candidate that’s applying for this job for app development knows how to develop an app? So what’s going to make you stand out? Oh, is it customer segmentation? Maybe interested in applying for PlayStation or Xbox? Okay, well, they have different games for different levels of genre, gender, age range, so let’s break it down. How many can you cross off and say you have experienced at least touch experience on whether it’s just your current role or previous roles or even if you pivoted from another industry? Then really diving in, and then painting that picture, and then extracting, and then all of them have a hierarchy. I always say like your resume, it’s almost like a dating site. Like you create a profile, you know, you might whatever dating app site people may be creating, you’re not gonna say every release you’ve been on, you’re not going to give them everything, you just want to give them enough to get you the first date, the resume should get enough to give you the interview, you will never get you a job offer. You don’t need to create, I have clients like, have a five page a page resume, like that’s not a resume, that’s a book. That’s a bibliography right there, maximum two pages, they only spend six to eight seconds on your resume. So be intentional, what’s going to really stand out in six to eight seconds, and it’s not good enough to stand on six, eight seconds, it does not need to be in the resume, unless it’s there for the ETS or computer system. Otherwise, it does not deserve to be there. So it’s really extracting themselves from that, because I feel like they’re just so invested, I need to have everything they need to know everything that I do. And honestly, you they don’t they just need to give you enough to say, you know, Lisa, sounds great, let’s bring you in for an interview. And if she works out, like we’ll move on through the interview phases, but we don’t need to know what your first job was. I you know, there was a point when I was in the hiring side. And we were hiring for this director within the medical industry. And he had the he was a, you know, UPS driver. I mean, from like 30 years. It was like, what does this have to do with the role? Like why did you even include it in there? I rather focus on what have you delivered? How can you be a good director? What are some of transferable skills, or some of those achievements that you have that can translate you in order for you to be successful director level position, like, tell me more, and it wasn’t like that used to be a director for ups or anything and nothing against ups drivers, it’s just it doesn’t match with the role. So it does not deserve to be on the resume. That’s such

Lisa Lewis Miller  26:59  

a good point. And it’s so difficult for people who are making career changes, to wrestle with that one, because let’s say that you’ve spent the last, I don’t know, 1015 years of your life working. Let’s say that you were working at a university, and you were an academic advisor. And now you’re really wanting to apply for roles in tech project management.

And you know that you’ve got transferable skills, and you’re highlighting them. But when you look at your employment history, it says, you know, Junior student advisor, student advisor, senior student advisor, student advising director, how do you help guide people through the decision making process of what do you keep? What do you need to create a more comprehensive, cohesive resume? And what are the things that end up being so far off mission or off base is what you want to go do next, that it actually is a strategic advantage for you to omit those.

Claudia Miller  27:56  

So one thing is understanding what are those transferable skills, and I always say, like, use a job description, as a compass, or not even a compass, like as a guide, but it is not like you, actually I just was reading our article. And personally, I’ve seen it, and I’ve done it myself, and my clients have done it. And I always say, we look at a job description, and you can qualify at least 30 40% of what’s in the job description, apply. job descriptions are not a true reflection of the actual job you’ll be doing. And if you don’t believe me, look at the job description that they posted when you got hired, and then look at what you’re doing now. I bet you it’s vastly different, especially now, because COVID, it might be totally different. I have clients where they used to go to events and do experiential event. And now like, they don’t attend any event whatsoever. Now they do virtual workshops and webinars. Very different, very different skill set. So one of the things again, is understanding, reviewing the job description, what is it that you have overall, what are they really looking for? If you are like said they’re trying to transition from academic advising to being just a technical project manager? Sure, yeah. So then it could be, you know, highlighting what, what are some of those job descriptions? What does it look like? What do you have? How can you translate that from your past experience project management, as an academic advisor, you probably have to manage multiple students. And every academic advisor also has like a specific plan. So if there are 10,000 students, and there’s only 10 academic advisors, then we know that each academic advisor probably is solely responsible for 1000. Now you’re managing 1000 different clients or stakeholders or customers, however, you want to use that verbiage. They’re not students anymore. You got to talk in their language, if it’s a technical, they’re going to call them probably customers or members. So now you’re in charge of over 1000 members. And so what what about it? Well, you have to be responsible for academic advising or you can say, we needed to ensure that they met our curriculum in order or they met our requirements in order to you know, achieve so Successful completion, aka graduation. So it’s speaking in the companies and that industries tone and verbiage and language. Sometimes again, we are instead of calling them students, now they’re members, instead of saying graduation, Completion, or meet all the requirements in order to successfully, you know, meet this milestone, change the verbiage so that way they it’s almost like it’s a real estate strategy. When you’re trying to sell your house, the real estate agent would say, remove all pictures and any personal information because we want to the buyer to see themselves in your home. If you have too many pictures of yourself and your family and your dog, they’re not going to be able to see themselves in your home and you’re trying to sell. Same thing with the resume, you don’t want them to realize that you are coming from a different industry, speaking their language, you’re in their, like their turf or their industry. So talk in a way that they’re going to be able to understand and translates. And the other thing is, since you are coming and especially for you know, some of your listeners that come from a nonlinear career trajectory, meaning like maybe they went, they were teaching in, I don’t know, in China like English, and now they are bartending, and now they’re volunteering and now their academic advising and other want to move into project management. Or for some of those listeners out there that maybe you’ve been out of work, for whatever reason, personal reasons, you’re a stay at home mom, and you want to dive in back to the industry, one recommendation I have is create a skills based resume. And it’s a little bit different because a traditional resume will be like a summary objective experience, education and skills, a skills based resume. And what the problem is with the traditional, if you’re in those situations is they’re going to say you’re applying for Project Manager, but you could demick advisor, I’m not understanding the connection here, Lisa like and you, they only have six to eight seconds to think through this, like I’m not going to share, I’m not going to connect the dots, and I’m going to toss out your resume. But if you use the skills for your resume, and you focus on the top three skill sets, they know they’re looking for project managers, you can talk about your project management skills, your process improvement, and your your ability to be successfully be client facing and to manage different teams, then all of a sudden you speak in their language, they don’t realize that you’re coming from different industries, they just know that you have this top skill says they’re looking for Lisa has everything we’re looking for. And they tend to not look so much at the bottom of the resume. And that’s where you could put your work history experience, like the actual roles that you’ve had at the companies. So when they bring you in, they’re just so focused, and you already sold them on you and that you have the top skill sets they’re looking for. And you were able to back it up with achievements that they’re excited to bring you in. And then again, we know they have six to eight seconds. So let’s use that maximize it and be intentional. They’re gonna bring you in for interviews. And once in your interviews, you can you know, like I said, touch on those pain points we know they’re looking for, and position yourself as that top sought after candidate.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:55  

Interesting. Okay, well, so now let me throw you a curveball. So when it comes to this skills based resume, when I’ve spoken to people who work in HR, or recruiting, what they’ve typically said is that when people do these more functional versions of their resume rather than a chronological, it kind of alerts them to the fact that the candidates trying to hide something about their background or about their work history. And so it actually said, from what from the people that I’ve talked to you spurs them into action to figure out what you’re trying to hide? Yep. Like, why did you do your resume this way? What’s your real work history? And it actually kind of puts them on higher alert? What have you heard when when you talk to recruiters and hiring managers?

Claudia Miller  33:35  

Yes. Like, for example, the ESET is true, but there’s different ways. So if you’re learning so in the summary objective, it could be now looking to leverage experience for x RA and be like, Oh, yeah, that is transferable, and they hit on those top marks. The other thing is to cover letter, they’re gonna, they might say like, maybe you didn’t put them at ease. The cover letter is gonna say, you know, one of the things that you know, why you’re passionate about the company, what makes you different, and I always say, address the elephant in the room, you know, I have non, you know, career trajectory experience. And, you know, I, I was focusing early on, on what my passion was, and I was able to explore and work with different communities and be able to teach English, while be able to travel and to learn different cultures and understand diversity. And now I’m looking to transfer and leverage all those skills that I’ve acquired throughout my years in my professional career, in order for technical project management role where that’s something I really enjoy. I’m actually I self taught myself SQL, Python, I also, you know, am an avid learner where right now currently I’m taking a Coursera course on how to use agile methodology and I was in there like, Okay, got it. And then, but again, like, you want to make sure you’re intentional and I’ve had clients successfully I had actually a client where she was a stay at home mom for 15 years, couldn’t get an interview, be creative skill space resume. They brought her in for an interview. She had amazing experience it was 15 years ago, but in her line of service, it’s all about people. And not like it wouldn’t it would be 30 years and it doesn’t really change much. So she was able to talk about her achievements, what she did, and not really necessarily say like, Oh, 15 years ago, I used to do this. Instead, we want to say like, you know, my experience has been working with top companies like Cisco, Geico, Expedia, and Travelocity, with budgets of up to $50 million. And I put events together with, you know, it’s been over 10,000 attendees, and all of a sudden, you know, they don’t need to know it’s 15 years, if you can do that 1015 years ago, and we have a bigger budget than I know, you can successfully do this. So it’s really understanding like what’s really put, I always say, put yourself in the recruiter six to eight seconds. Or you can even just give it to a friend, you say, Here, I’m gonna give you 10 seconds, and then pull it back. What did you think? What was? What did you gather what you know, captured your attention? They might say, yeah, that was a little confusing. I have no, and I’m not exactly sure what you did where you’re applying for. That’s another reason to HR people, or hire for so many roles. And it could be admin operations, technical marketing, sales, I mean, and everything in between that they’re not experts in that role. So connected, that’s for them. Tell them don’t make them connected dots, and then speak in so much jargon that they have no idea what you’re even talking about. So put it in a way that a friend or someone that’s not familiar in the industry can understand read and say, oh, wow, I didn’t know you could do this. Lisa, like, why did you ever bring this up? Oh, you know, that’s something that I’ve done. If you get that reaction, that means you have a great resume.

Lisa Lewis Miller  36:42  

I love that. I hope everybody who is listening to this takes Claudia’s tip, and you do it, and I so I often will call this the the printer test for your resume, which is imagine that the HR person wanted to print out your resume to look at a physical copy in person. And so imagine everybody’s back in the office, and that they’ve sent the resume to the printer. And somebody else sent something else to the printer and they grab the whole stack of paper off the printer walked away. So this other person who has nothing to do with HR now has your resume in hand, that question of whose desk should they put your resume on? should be easy to answer in six to eight seconds. So doing a preview version of that for yourself with a friend of printing it out, putting it in front of them, and then covering it up after eight seconds to say, Okay, what impression did you get? Who do you think I am as a candidate? What are the skills that I bring to the table? What kind of roles Am I applying for, is such a great sounding board idea. So thank you for throwing that out there. But I want to get to one really important piece of the negotiation process here. We’ve been focused so much on the prep work on the research on the positioning, making sure that you are creating the impression of yourself that you want on paper and on your professional materials. But the big enchilada is the interview process and when they actually give you the offer. So how do you guide people through that that dance? Right, the tango that happens when you have now begun the interview process and you’re building a relationship with an organization to make sure that their first offer is as competitive as it can be? And that you position yourself? Well to negotiate up from there?

Claudia Miller  38:25  

Yeah, so if at that point, you know, you get that job offer, say Congrats. We’d like to extend an offer, we want you to come on board, as you know, whatever role they’re hiring for. By this point, I’m going to assume that you did the research and networked with people and you already know what that range looks like. Now, let’s say you did it, but at least LinkedIn or whatever website said, Hey, here’s the range. Now we have that information. You should be prepared before that call comes in. Because if they offered you what you want, then what is Plan B, you still should negotiate even if they offer you more than you wanted. There should there’s still other things to negotiate. There’s always room for more. And people would say, Well, if they offered me like 30 $40,000 more than I’m already making, or even more than what I wanted, like, isn’t that greedy? No, it’s not because we know that and I’ve had clients, not clients, but I had guests on my podcast come in and saying, I never I tend to not offer them the higher end of that salaries because I know they’re going to negotiate and I want to leave room for negotiation because I want to make sure they feel happy with it. Probably most people don’t negotiate and they just take what they’re given and they walk away when they left at least you know another 1015 $20,000 so even if you think it’s a really great offer, there’s still money on the table. So have different scenarios What if they offer you what you want, then you know what is Plan B? The whatever they offer you plan B Okay, whether you need to have Plan C What do they offer you? Let’s just say they offer you you know, like the case on my client, Hey, I got an offer $50,000 more than I’m currently making. You know, I don’t necessarily want to negotiate base, I’m happy with that. Okay, what about sign on bonus? How much more? Do you want to make professional development? You’re looking to get a black belt, Lean Six Sigma, that, you know, that cost about $10,000? Can they pay for that? What about Did you even look at your health insurance, I had a client where they had, I think, at this point, they got offer about 25 $30,000. More. And, you know, I, with my clients actually go through there, negotiate offers with them if they want me to, and I’ll say, Okay, this is how you review and negotiate an offer letter, here’s how you make a lot of these assessments of like, what you need to ask for. And one of the things that I found out is that they had a child with special needs. And they, you know, based on their health insurance they currently had, it actually covered a lot of those medical costs. Now, this new company, smaller had not that great of a health insurance policy, that would mean an extra 15 $100 for them a month out of pocket just to pay for their medical costs, that wipes out almost all of their, like salaries they had gotten or received at that point. So that’s when we need when we actually brought it up. You know, one of the things that I realized is because of the benefits, and my previous company, right now, this would require an additional 15 $100 out of pocket every month, in order to cover you know, some of these, you know, medical benefits. You know, one of the things that, you know, I’m looking for it really wipes, you know, one of the things I’m looking for is I really look to make a salary of 150,000, you offered me, let’s just say 130. So I’m really looking for a salary based on your benefits that the company is offering, I’m looking more of a salary of 150,000, you know, is there any way we can close this gap. And then just stay quiet, let them figure out how they will if they want to pay you in pennies. If they want to pay in sign on bonus, if they want to pay you in restricted stock units or stock options out there. It I mean, let them get creative. And they can they can close that gap however they want. And then you decided that’s good enough for you. Obviously, every person is different. But that’s one way to really assess just because you got that increased doesn’t mean it translates to out of pocket, extra money in your pocket. So really assess the full scope of the benefits. Always have a plan A, B and C and even D because I did get a chance. Like I said I had a client who already had $50,000 salary increase. We knew they offered her above the salary range based on what we found out during networking and on what they had on the website. So we, you know, looked at other items that she did want to she ended up getting like that sign on bonus, she was able to now they’re going to pay for that blackbell, Lean Six Sigma course that’s $10,000 worth. And she was still able to add that into the offer letter because she was prepared and she was able to have the conversation and be ready whenever that time that call came. Of course they said, you know, let me see what we can work into this. I’ll have to speak with the hiring manager, but I’ll get back to you in about a day or two. They call her the same day. And then they said yes. And usually when I say like when they call you they call you on the same day, we probably still didn’t ask for enough. But she was still happy. And it was a good learning experience for her she had never negotiated her salary before.

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:17  

Amazing. Well, let me ask you one more question before we come in for a close for today, which is, what if they say no, what of you’re in the negotiation? You say, hey, how could we get into the same ballpark here? I was really hoping to accept an offer in this range. And they say, yeah, I’m sorry, this is the best we can do.

Claudia Miller  43:37  

Yeah, so there’s different ways, I always say it’s a personal choice. Now if you’re happy with it, of course, be there. But you know, one of the things is there’s always room I and you know, this is something and one of my clients, you know, actually got a promotion internally down for her, like an 8% salary increase. And one of the things that, you know, we work together, so when she spoke to the HR slash hire you, my manager was more like, No, I’m really looking for a salary of 120,000. In based on, you know, what we discussed very, you know, the interviews and based on the responsibility, you know, especially aligned with my background and my education, my expertise in a, b and c, we can touch on those top three things. We know, it’s so hard of hire for and they really want a need, you know, I’m really looking for a salary of 120,000 is very competitive in the market, you know, how can we close this gap? I, you know, I want to make sure that it’s, you know, that it fits both of us. So, is, you know, how can we get there? And they might say, I don’t know, like, you know, it’s internally and then just say like, you know, I need to think about it. You know, like I said, I really I’m excited to join a team in the company. The role sounds great. And I’m very excited about it, but I am looking to, you know, a salary of this much 120,000 and, you know, based on my skill sets and my background and especially what the responsibilities will until in this role You know, it’s definitely a great match. But let me think about it. And if it’s okay, if I can get back to you, they might say something like, and in this case, it happened. Well, think about it, let me know. But in the meantime, I’ll see what I can do. And they waited a day, my client, my client did not contact them. So we were waiting more for them to contact them. And then they said, Well, actually, we were able to get you 118,000. What originally was like, I think 9597, all of a sudden, they were able to find an extra 10 $18,000. And I always tell people, for us is a lot. But if you look at their paper, like toilet paper budget, or you know, some of those things, they spend way more money on that they can always find now if it’s a nonprofit, there are other benefits, you can negotiate like for them painting paying for your MBA degrees certifications, because they can put this as a tax expense. But they are still ways that you can still get to that number. So figure out if they can’t, well, we can’t pay a salary. You know, one of the things I again, that’s why you need to be prepared, you know, one thing I’ve been wanting to do, but I couldn’t because it is expensive. And honestly, what I would want to do with the extra income is get the black belt, you know, certification, it is a certification for 10,000. I would love to, you know, could we add this into the offer letter and that way, it makes up that difference? Or you can say can I you know, get childcare services, or work from home? Or can I get a stipend or professional development stipend or pay for this association, that benefits of the employer as well. But again, a lot of this takes time, you can’t think this at the top of your mind, especially if you’re not prepared or used to it.

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:43  

I love that and some other things that you were modeling and demonstrating in your language there is that when you’re going back to the person who gave you the offer, or your HR contact to talk about it, that the language that you were using was not yes or no. Can you do this? Yes or No, it was open ended collaborative language of how do we get there. And even just teeny differences like that can make such a huge impact on what’s possible and what they’re willing to do to make things happen for you.

Claudia Miller  47:11  

It really gives you like, I like to say like, the other person on the receiving end feels empowered because I don’t have to give this to you this $20,000 increase in one chunk, I can say, well, we can give you a $5,000 sign on bonus, we can give you about $5,000 extra in stock options. And what about we give you a $10,000 stipend in order for you to get that certification? Would that work? Yeah, that’ll work. And again, that’s a personal choice, yes or no. But it really helps in building that. And they can get strategic and higher that I guess, and however they want to pay that out, as long as they pay you out. Like that’s the main goal. And that will get you to where you want to be at and get paid what you want. But again, you’re able to know a lot of these things based on the research you have should have done at this point before with the networking, getting that inside information and understanding their pain points in order for you to be in that position to be able to leverage and really negotiate your salary successfully.

Lisa Lewis Miller  48:09  

Amazing. Well, Claudia, somebody has been listening to this and loving all of these tips and is just eating out of the palm of your hand and wants to learn more about negotiation positioning and conversation strategy. Where can they learn more about your body of work?

Claudia Miller  48:25  

Yeah, so they can go to my website claudiatmiller.com  as in Tom claudiatmiller.com  as well as you can find me on LinkedIn, you know, LinkedIn forward slash in forward slash claudiatmiller, you’ll be able to find me I like to share a lot of information. And one of the things that I’ve created is a free five day email course where if you are job searching and trying to figure out, Okay, what am I doing wrong in this job search if you already been doing it, or how can I update my resume or my LinkedIn profile, more detailed information. I’m offering this free five day email course that they can get access to when they go to my website, and then they’ll be able to start that, you know, that email course on their own time so that we can really help them prepare and accelerate themselves in their job search.

Lisa Lewis Miller  49:10  

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing that resource and for sharing your brilliance with all of our listeners on the Career Clarity Show today. Now, thanks again. And I hope everyone found this helpful. And thanks again for having me, Lisa. I appreciate it.

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally find the work that fits your values and lifestyle. For the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book and Don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.