Episode 106: Practical Tips To Make Your Career Change Happen with Jenn Smith

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

On today’s episode of the show, we are doing something that’s a little different from a lot of the typical episodes of the show where you hear people talk about their stories and their transitions. To change things up, we’re talking tactical and practical tips to make your career change happen. One of the biggest things that comes up as both a fear and as a logistical challenge when you’re making a transition, is figuring out how you tell your story and how you best present yourself in an interview capacity. 

We’re covering the top three common mistakes that job seekers make in the interview process and how you can be addressing those to make sure that you are the best prepared most equipped candidate in the room and able to secure these jobs despite having a background that might be a little bit different from a typical candidate. Joining us as our guest expert to talk all about interview strategy today is our Career Clarity certified coach, Jenn Smith.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

Show Notes:

• Learn more about Jenn (and apply to work with her!) in her coaching profile
• Episode 20: The guide to creating a tenacity-driven career with Jenn Smith
• Episode 40: Monitoring and Managing Your Energy at Work with Career Clarity coach Jenn Smith
• Episode 54: Mastering the Top 5 Mental and Motivational Habits with Career Clarity certified coach Jenn Smith
• Episode 87: Tactical Tips for Marketing Yourself with Jenn Smith
• Connect with Jenn on LinkedIn
• Follow Jenn on Instagram at @flourish.careers
• Roadmap to a Fulfilling Career eBook

Subscribe to The Career Clarity Show on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, and Google Play.

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Welcome back to the Career Clarity Show. I’m Lisa Miller. And I am delighted as always that you are with us today. On today’s episode of the show, we are doing something that’s a little different from a lot of the typical episodes of the show where you hear people talk about their stories and their transitions and how they made decisions. Today, we are talking tactical and practical about how to make your career change happen. One of the biggest things that comes up as both a fear and as a logistical challenge when you’re making a transition, is figuring out how you tell your story and how you best present yourself in an interview capacity. Because so many of the other people who might be applying for the roles you’re interested in, might have more, let’s say traditional backgrounds for those types of roles. Maybe they’ve been in that industry or in that type of a role function for years and years. So when you are interviewing for a role where you might be an untraditional candidate, the onus is on you to stand out and make a great impression. So what we’re talking about today, are not only the top three common mistakes that job seekers can make in the interview process, but also how you can be addressing those to make sure that you are the best prepared most equipped candidate in the room and able to secure these jobs despite having a background that might be a little bit different from a typical candidate. Joining us as our guest expert to talk all about interview strategy today is the one the only repeat guest, Jennifer Smith. Jen Smith is our Career Clarity Show certified coach. She is one of the wonderful members of our coaching team and her background in all aspects of HR combined with her work as a career coach now makes her a brilliant strategist when it comes to thinking about how you can put your best foot forward in an interview process and really feel like you are shining and showing up authentically. Not like some sort of like beauty pageant, hyper polished, hyper airbrushed, hyper hair sprayed, perfectly prepared version of yourself, but as the true blue real deal version of yourself with authenticity, energy and enthusiasm shining through. So if you need some tactical tips on how to make sure that you are showing up as powerfully in interview situations as you possibly can, you should definitely stay tuned today’s episode. Jenn. Welcome back to the Career Clarity Show.

Jenn Smith  3:04  

Thank you, Lisa, I am thrilled to be here to talk all about action and practical tips. That’s my one of my favorite things to talk through with job seekers.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:15  

Well, and I think that insofar as so much of what we do here is helping people to dream and think bigger and come up with exciting possibilities for their lives. All of that doesn’t matter if you can’t make it happen. Right? Right. You could have all these beautiful, incredible ideas and hopes and possibilities. But if you don’t then take the actions to turn it into a reality in your life. You don’t get to reap the rewards. So I love that you are focused on how do we operationalize this, how do we make it happen for you, so you can step into the roles that feel great for you. And I love that we’re talking about the top three mistakes, the top three oversights, the top three questions that may come up in the interview process or folks, because like you and I were talking about right before we hit record, there’s a big difference between knowing sort of the 101 level of how to interview, how do you show up? What are some of the things you should think about for questions that you might get? How do you prep? And the 201 level of interview prep? Of how do I show off my uniqueness? How do I really make somebody else feel excited about hiring me not just do I know how to check the boxes in an interview situation, but do I know how to stand out and effectively show off who I am. So I’m so excited to get to have you share some of your brilliance and your tips on that today?

Jenn Smith  4:42  

Yeah, thank you. I love how you describe it like one on one and then 201 kind of kicking it up a notch especially when it is so competitive out there and you really do need to be memorable and stand out.

Lisa Lewis Miller  4:52  

Yeah, absolutely. I think that for most of the year is between 2010 and 2020 The majority of the time in there, it was a job seekers market, because the word on talent was real. And the market was evolving really quickly. And if you were good at what you did, you could command a high salary and have a lot of leverage in your search. But last year has had some things shift, the market has shifted, the amount of available talent has shifted company’s willingness to take a risk on a full time hire, and they’re speediness, to making an offer, all of those things have been changing. So making sure that you are as equipped as you possibly can, is going to serve you now as well as helping you stand out in years and interviews to come.

Jenn Smith  5:48  

Yeah, and just to kind of add to that, so when when recruiters you know, in a in a job seekers market, they’re out there trying to find the best talent, they’re out there, like finding passive candidates, they’re out there sourcing talent, and in a, in a market that we’re in today, they have so many candidates coming to them, that it’s different. So like the candidates that are coming to them, you know, they review those candidates, they try to find the best candidates, but they don’t have to go out there and hunt as much. So kind of like the real estate market, you know, there’s ups and downs, and it changes, you know, constantly. So today, with so many candidates applying and going through the interview process, it’s really important to, you know, take the time to prepare and make sure that you are going to stand out because it’s so different.

Lisa Lewis Miller  6:33  

And to that point, I think that getting the invitation to an interview is now becoming so precious, so rare, so important, so valuable, you really want to make sure that you are equipped, you’ve got the right strategy, you don’t make a gaffe, just because you didn’t know or because you hadn’t been thinking about it. So I love that we were talking about what some of these mistakes are and how to help people prepare and avoid them. So let’s dive into Mistake number one that job seekers often make in the interview process, which is dubbed seekers providing generic responses to interview questions rather than telling a story. You talk about this a little bit.

Jenn Smith  7:15  

Yes, and this is definitely the most common mistake that I see that I saw as a recruiter and a hiring manager as well as now working with clients, when they’re preparing for interviews. And so, you know, the the thing is storytelling is really powerful. And that’s what’s going to make you memorable. And when you take the time to think through your stories, and share them with the person interviewing them, like literally walking them through the story of your life, when this happened, will help one showcase your skills and abilities for the job. And then two, again, it’ll help you be memorable. So the stories versus the generic will help you be memorable. And so, you know, I’ll give you a quick example. And I use this with my clients. But you know, a typical interview question might be what is your greatest strength? And, you know, a generic answer to that response would be my greatest strength is my attention to detail. Okay, great. And then if you kick that up a notch or go to level two or one year you tell a story. So my greatest strength is attention to detail. For example, I was the project lead for a large new sales initiative that was being rolled out to 50,000 employees around the world. So you’re showcasing your size and scope here that you’re leading a big project. And then right before the launch, I was asked to proofread the communications and all the launch emails. So I spent some time reviewing them. And I noticed that there were three spelling mistakes. And one of them was the CEOs last name. So because of my attention to detail, the project launched, the communications went out error free. And my eagle eye for detail and editing saved the day. So you can see the difference there between the very generic answer and then just adding a little bit of a story to showcase your skills and abilities as well. As you know, keeping that story in mind. I mean, that’s a pretty memorable story if the CEOs name is going to be misspelled in in an email launching a new initiative to 50,000 people around the world. So. So it’s a simple example. But you can hopefully get the difference between those two responses.

Lisa Lewis Miller  9:27  

Absolutely. I think one of the really important things that offering up that story does is that it it contextualizes you, because everybody can say that they are detail oriented. But when you can contextualize it and say this is the way in which I’m detail oriented, it becomes so much more memorable, but it also helps to paint a picture in the hiring managers brain of Oh, I can see this person doing that for us, or Oh, I know and we’ve sent out an email with a huge spelling mistake. Get up yet we need somebody like this person, though, giving people something to, to sink their teeth into, that helps to bridge your past and their future. And that also is just more fun to tell them more fun to talk about is a fabulous thing there. And I think that one of the things, one of the reasons why people sometimes provide these generic responses is that we forget why we’re being asked to interview questions in the first place. And I don’t I’ll be really curious to hear your your thoughts on this. But I think that when you are in an interview, you have earned the right to be in an interview, because effectively they already you’re pretty sure you could probably do the job that they want you to do. They’re just trying to get some fine tuned details to understand. Do they like you? Do you feel like the the perfect fit the dream candidate for them? Do they like your energy? Do they like Do they? Can they imagine working late hours with you? Or can they imagine being in the trenches with you if a project goes wrong, and they need some support? So anytime you’re being asked a question in an interview, there’s, there’s like, answering the question at its face value of what’s my greatest strength? And then there’s answering the question behind the question of do do we get along? Do I like your energy? Does your capability seem to fit and make sense here? So remembering that there’s kind of a question behind the question can help to remind you to tell some of these stories, and to, to not feel weird or guilty on expounding on a story that might feel like it has a really simple answer on its face? But Jen, I’m curious what you think of that?

Jenn Smith  11:49  

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s showcasing your personality, you know, and they want to know, you know, what is it going to be like to work with this person. And when you share those stories, that’s you’re, you’re sharing with them what it’s like to work with you, you know, and so, obviously, you want to put your best foot forward. And that’s why I think, like preparing a couple of these stories ahead of time, you know, like really dissecting that job description, and you know, kind of thinking ahead of time of what they might ask, usually, you can pull things out of a job description, and be able to think of these stories. And then most of the time, your stories are going to be applicable to multiple different types of questions. So if you had like, five stories prepared ahead of time, that showcase your personality, that walk the person through the story of what it’s like to work with you, and you’ve got these really robust, you know, responses, you know, that, that give that peek into your personality, that’s what’s going to set you apart, you know, versus those those generic answers. And that’s what’s going to make the person be able to make a decision on whether or not you’re a good fit for the organization, and you’re going to be an asset to their team.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:52  

That making a decision point is so important. And something that you might not be thinking about when you’re in the interview seat, because you might be feeling like my job is just to tap dance, my job is to please my job is to is to sort of flatter and cross my fingers and hope that I’m the right fit. But when you show up authentically, and tell authentic short stories about who you are, and what you’ve done, and what you love, you’re helping them to make a decision in both directions, you’re helping them to see Ooh, do I like this person’s authenticity and their personality? And are they easy to say yes to to collaborate with? Or do I not like this person’s authenticity? Because man, oh, man, when you put yourself into this pressure cooker situation where you feel like you have to have these perfect answers that are polished that you rehearsed a zillion times. And you don’t let some of that personality and the color and the detail and the context come through. If you get hired on, they hired that fake version of you. They wanted this sort of like extra polished, extra package extra plastic version of you, rather than the real deal version. So as weird and counterintuitive, as it might sound, helping them to make a decision. Either that you’re a yes. Or that you’re a no can actually be a really good thing.

Jenn Smith  14:17  

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, these are hard decisions to make. And usually when you’re interviewing, you know, there’s multiple touch points, there’s multiple touch points for a reason you’re interviewing with multiple people that would potentially be interacting with you and showcasing your personality and, you know, telling stories and multiple different stories to you know, different people is going to be critical, you know, to for them to make that decision. And sometimes, if you have an inexperienced hiring manager or an inexperienced person on the panel, they might, you know, not really be able to see through that inauthentic or really polished answer where somebody that’s more experienced on an interview panel might be able to kind of say, Oh, they felt like a little too rehearsed. I don’t think that’s you know, that’s not going to be a really good With our organization, and people have those conversations to make the best decision to make the best hiring decision for the team. So yeah, it’s a great point.

Lisa Lewis Miller  15:08  

I think that that question of being super polished and how you present leads into Mistake number two, that interviewers make really beautifully. So the mistake number two that jobseekers make in interviews, is when you don’t show off your enthusiasm for the role, or you don’t let energy and excitement come through.

Jenn Smith  15:33  

Yeah, this, again, it sounds simple. But I think two things happen either a job seeker gets into the point of the interview, and they’re super nervous. And so they forget, they kind of like freeze up and forget to show the enthusiasm or show their personality for, you know, the company or the job. Or they feel like they have to be perfect. And then they come across as robotic. And that’s, you know, companies don’t want to hire robots, we’ve got enough, we’ve got enough technology and robots, like we want to hire human beings. And so I feel like, you know, job seekers should approach an interview, like a conversation, it doesn’t have to be, you know, the spotlight on you as the job seeker up on stage with all the lights, like it really should be an engaging two way conversation, not this solo performance. And so I think sometimes, like flipping your mind, you know, that you’re going into this as a conversation. And you should, quite frankly, be interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you, in order for you to make that, you know, the most informed decision on your next best role. So, so yeah, you know, I always encourage folks just to kind of like, you know, take a deep breath and and let them see your personality, it’s important to not to be you know, not to be the robot. And we want to hire people that are excited about the job and excited about working for our organization. And the interview is where you showcase that enthusiasm. And even if you are nervous,

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:57  

yeah, it comes back to something we were saying a little bit before on the on the other mistake of people want to see your authenticity. And nervousness is not necessarily a bad thing, right? It means you care, it means that you want to do a good job. But if that then becomes a layer that gets in the way of people being able to see, do I like this person? Do they seem competent? Do they have any enthusiasm or energy around this opportunity, then it ends up being self sabotaging, which is a big, big bummer.

Jenn Smith  17:29  

Yeah. And to overcome, you know, the nervousness piece or coming across like a robot or, you know, kind of clamming up like that, the best thing to do is to practice like it’s practice, practice, practice. So it’s going back and thinking through your accomplishments, identifying those stories, analyzing the job description, and then showcasing how you can add value. And so if you’ve got these stories, and you’ve got these things ready to go, you know, to be able to showcase your value. And, you know, doing that ahead of time is going to make you feel more competent and comfortable and telling your stories. And so, you know, a lot of times I’ll work with clients that are prepping for an interview, and, you know, we start talking about a story and it just doesn’t make any sense. And they’re rambling. And they don’t really remember the, you know, the beginning point of it, and it just kind of goes on and on. And then we kind of regroup and say, okay, you know, what was the objective of the story? What was the action that you took, and then what was the result, and we kind of start getting those down on paper for each of their accomplishments or their stories that they want to get across in this interview, and, and then they’ve got it in their mind, and they can practice ahead of time. And that’s when that confidence and that enthusiasm showcases,

Lisa Lewis Miller  18:36  

yeah, and if you’ve never done interview, prep coaching, you might not realize how powerful it can be to just give yourself an opportunity to do a dry run. But I have never worked with a potential candidate who is getting ready in approaching their interview, who hasn’t been grateful to get this sort of crappy, sloppy version of their answers out out of their bodies out of their brains in a safe space with somebody else who can give them some loving feedback to say, Okay, how would that feel to you? You know, did you feel energized and confident and clear. And like you were effectively communicating what you wanted to say? Do you feel like there’s an opportunity to amp it up even more. And just getting those dry runs and getting good practices done in a low risk environment can make it so that when you step into the interview, you know, the mechanics of how to put together your story. So you can still be authentic, you can be responsive to the situation, you can add in a little humor if it’s warranted. You can make the story even longer if it sounds like somebody is really excited or shorter if it feels like it’s not quite as relevant to what they do. But you feel like you’ve got more tools in your toolbox because you know, the source material and the content that you want to be able to contribute.

Jenn Smith  19:54  

Yeah, there are a couple other things that just to add to that to help kind of like ease the nerves and make you more enthusiastic. I love this idea of kind of like breaking the ice by connecting with the folks you’re going to interview with on LinkedIn ahead of your interview. And I think a lot of times I make the suggestion, and people are like, Oh, I thought I should do that after the interview, I was like, Well, why wouldn’t you do it before and let them know, you know that you’re excited to meet with them, then you you as the candidate can put a name and a face, you can see if you have anything in common, you can do a little bit of work ahead of time. And that will help ease your nerves, because you’ve already kind of met them online and kind of broken the ice there. And then you’ll again be a little bit less nervous and able to showcase your personality and your enthusiasm when it comes time for the interview. So and I think like, a lot of times people are afraid to ask for the schedule, or who they’re interviewing with to and, you know, that’s totally normal to ask for, you should definitely know what the schedule is, who the people are, what their roles are. And that helps your preparation, you know, ahead of time and then being more comfortable going in into the conversation. Oh, my

Lisa Lewis Miller  21:01  

gosh, yes, I would be so much more nervous walking into a panel interview, not knowing who I’m speaking to, then if I have the presence of mind to ask the HR person or the recruiter who’s coordinating, you know, who are the people? What are their titles, what should I do about them to make sure that you can contextualize your, your information and your answers appropriately. Because I think it’s important to keep in mind that as this is a two way conversation, they are all humans too. And they’re kind of rooting for you, they want you to be this the solution to their problems, and the answer to their needs. But you got to know what their needs are. Right? If you are, let’s say you’re interviewing for a product position, like you’re a product manager, and you’re interviewing with three engineers, that tells you something about what they’re looking for in a product manager. And it can help you to think about what kinds of stories might be most relevant to share with these people in particular, as opposed to, like the Senior Director of Product two might be your boss, or the product associate, right? Who might be your direct report.

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:12  

I think it’s, I think sometimes people get nervous about having doing too much prep, and then having it come across as sort of manipulative or like you know too much about them. And it sounds creepy. But all communication is a it’s a tango, it’s a dance, it’s a two way collaborative, co created experience. And knowing your audience and knowing who you’re speaking to, is something that that we do all the time naturally, right? If you are interacting with a little kid, you use different language and different tone of voice than you do if you are interacting with your grandma. And so why not bring that to your professional communications to and set yourself up to feel as calm and as clear as you can walking into those conversations.

Jenn Smith  22:56  

Yeah, and I love that it’s a great example, if you are interviewing with three engineers, you better be prepared to talk technical, you know, so there’s always clues, you know, there’s all kinds of clues that are given to you prior to an interview for you to be able to prepare and you know, make, you know, show up as your best, you know, as the best version of yourself. I recently worked with a client who was interviewing at a large CPG company, and the job it was in marketing, but the job description just constantly mentioned, decision making. So this was a leadership role. And it just it mentioned it maybe three or four times. So we pulled that out as a theme, and then walked through, you know, four or five stories around decision making and, you know, kind of peppered different questions or how they might ask different questions around decision making to make sure he was comfortable, you know, talking about that. And so that was a clue. You know, that was right in the job description. It was a theme that was in the job description that we were able to pull out, and then you know, practice appropriately.

Lisa Lewis Miller  23:57  

One other thing that I think is important to, to sort of supplement or augment this conversation about practicing is practicing managing your energy and managing your mindset is a big piece of this. And Jen, I know you are a big fan of talking about energy and mindset. And we’ll even put into the show notes. One of the past episodes that we’ve done with Jen was huge into energy and mindset. And that would be a fabulous one for you to check out if you’re listening to this and think you need a little tune up there. But beyond practicing, the mindset that I find to be so so helpful, to allow for you to let your natural energy and enthusiasm to show up is a mindset that doesn’t feel like it’s rooted in desperation and fear. If you walk into that interview thinking this is the only interview that I have had, I can’t mess this up. I desperately need this. Even if those thoughts are true if you bring that energy to the conversation. We all think that We are better liars. And we are like people will sniff that out and feel that energy from you immediately. And it it colors and it shapes, the interactions. And it shapes your ability to let genuine enthusiasm and a sense of peace or relaxation come through in the process. So if you’re finding that you’re doing a lot of this, this, practicing and prep work and getting your stories down and running through them and doing the dry runs, and you still feel like that nervous energy is just hijacking the conversation, looking at your mindset and your beliefs about what’s about to happen, make a big difference, right, if you think you are the lowly peon. And they are the big bad hiring manager who has all the power and all the job and they are going to, you know, come down with their judgment on who you are as a person, you’re going to show up real differently than if you think that this is a collaborative conversation between two peers to see about potential opportunities for collaboration.

Jenn Smith  26:02  

Yeah, 100%. I love that. And it’s like, it’s almost like when you when you have that nervousness, or you’re thinking those negative thoughts ahead of time, it’s almost like you’re kind of manifesting for that to happen, versus if you were to stop and get your mindset in terms of like setting the intention that this is going to go well, and that you’re going to get a lot of credit information, you know, you’re going to meet new people, you’re going to build your network, regardless of the outcome, regardless of the final decision that’s made, it’s a great experience, it’s a great way to meet new people, it’s a great way to practice all of those things and have that intention going into it, that’s the energy that’s going to come forward to folks you know, that are that are interviewing, and maybe that the role you’re interviewing for isn’t a perfect fit. But because you have that energy and enthusiasm, they’re gonna keep you in mind for when a role does fit, you know, or maybe you were the runner up for this role. And then, you know, a month later, they decide they need to and so then you know, what, we’ve got a great candidate that we interviewed a month ago, that was really excited and had great energy, and we’d love to have him or her on the team. And so we’re gonna reach out and see if they’re, you know, still available. And that happens all the time. You know, and like one more point that just came to my mind about this, like, you know, setting the right intention, like when you think we’ve all worked on teams, where, you know, when someone isn’t there, there’s a gap, and everyone else has to pick up the slack. And it’s hard when you’re short staffed, you know, and so, so, so you being a candidate for an interview, they want you, they want you to be, you know, join the team, like, they need you, you know, and so when it when you kind of shift your energy, you know, to that, like, Hey, here’s the value, I can add, I’m going to go in and fill this gap for them and alleviate the stress that they have. Because they don’t have somebody in this role, like that little mindset shift to I think can be really helpful for folks.

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:55  

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenn Smith  28:00  

I love it. Yeah. And the other thing too, like, I guess, like, I would just add around, you know, just like helping you breathe and be prepared, and like setting the right intention to is, a lot of our interviews are virtual right now. And you can easily write out your stories and put them around your computer, you know, like, have them in front of you, you know, at an angle where your camera is, or whatever it is, you know, to feel that I guess like security blanket and knowing that you’ve got your responses right in front of you if you get stuck, because I think a lot of times people get nervous, and then they freeze. And it’s like, oh my gosh, what was I supposed to say? or What was I thinking but if you know you have your responses near you, it’s just like an added level of competence and security that everything’s gonna be okay. And you know, you’ve got your son’s right there. It’s so funny. I was working with a client, she actually showed me she had her, she had a wall behind her computer screen, and it was filled with her, you know, notes and just like little reminders to prompt her on her accomplishments. And it helped her feel so much more comfortable. And she was able to showcase her personality and make it through multiple rounds of interviews that way. So just a little little check there.

Lisa Lewis Miller  29:14  

That little hack that seems very appropriate to the to the season that we’re in. But Jen, it actually brings up a question because I think there are a lot of people who feel more comfortable in person. When you can see somebody else’s body language, when you get the chance to shake someone’s hand where you feel like you can read the room and read the energy a little bit better. And this reality where probably for the foreseeable future, we’re going to be still doing most if not all, interviews as video and virtual, that can add a layer of anxiousness or just a potential barrier to feeling like your natural energy and enthusiasm can sparkle through as easily. What kind of advice do you have for folks who get extra nervous around the virtual part.

Jenn Smith  30:03  

Yeah, I’m one of those people, I would definitely be rather be interviewing in person and like, the technology just adds another layer, like is it gonna work, you know, all of those things. And so, I’m a big fan of having a plan B. So I think like, one of the best things you can do is if you do have a zoom, or whatever, you know, conference, you know, call line, or whatever you’re using is to have somebody’s actual phone number. So in case the technology fails, so and that will also make you look like you’re very proactive by asking that. So if for some reason the internet is down, or whatever happens with the zoom, or, you know, the WebEx or whatever it is, at least you have a phone number of somebody that you can get in touch with. So asking your recruiter for a couple phone numbers, or having your recruiters phone number, you know, direct line that you can get in touch with helps kind of alleviate some of that anxiety around the technology. Obviously, you want to prep the technology, you want to make sure that it works. You know, a lot of times least when I was a recruiter, if someone was nervous about it, or we were interviewing somebody in a different country, or whatever it was, we would, you know, I would offer to give a little practice, like, hey, let’s just make sure the connection works. Let’s make sure you’ve got every you know, the WebEx downloaded, you know, the app and everything and make sure that you’re all set up to go. And I feel like recruiters are on your side as when you’re a job seeker. You know, use your recruiter as you know, somebody to help from that perspective. So I think those are things to think about. And then a tip that I recently got from a client, I’ll just share this, you know, like when you’re at home, and like the work from home thing, something that changed, you know, kind of some of the, the virtual anxiety as well as mindset was that she put shoes on like high heeled shoes that made her feel really good about herself versus like sitting in her chair with like, no shoes on or slippers on or something and that most of us would probably do, and that literally like changed things for her. And she just felt so much more confident, and so much better about the virtual situation when she was, you know, kind of dressed as she was going into an actual interview. So fun little tip there, too.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:11  

That’s awesome. I wonder if anybody listening had this experience. But I remember in high school, on days that you had a test, sometimes the teachers would encourage you to get dressed up. And just like the wear something a little bit nicer than whatever, like sweat pants you’re typically wearing to school. Because they said that there’s something about putting yourself in your game clothes, right, like putting yourself in your higher performer, highest self best self, energy and physical, you know, garniture, I’m just going to make up words today, your physical garments, just to help you channel that kind of energy. Because just like we were talking about with mindset, the bodily energy that you have when you are in leggings and slippers, and you’ve been working from the couch, versus when you took the time to do your hair in a way that feels really empowering and comfortable and fun and you and step into clothes that have a little bit more structure to them, or that you would have been wearing in this kind of situation in the past can just help your body to remember how to show up and how to perform in these kinds of situations.

Jenn Smith  33:23  

It makes a difference. I don’t know what the psychologists did, but it definitely makes a difference. And I think you’re comfortable, you’re more comfortable. And you’re, you know, feeling good about yourself. And then again, that energy is going to come forward to the folks that you’re you know that that are interviewing you. And they’re going to send that and feel that and you know, you’re not going to come across as a robot and you know, you’re going to showcase your enthusiasm and your personality and it’s going to you know, give off the right the right energy for you.

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:51  

Love it. A couple quick other thoughts on virtual interviews, just from a tech logistics perspective. I know one big thing I’ve been talking to folks a lot about is just make sure you got a clean background behind you and that there is light on your face. So making sure there aren’t any weird distracting shadows and that you’re not backlit is really important because they want to be able to see your face, your expressions, your gestures, and just making sure that there’s nothing distracting behind you, you know, you can just sort of like shimmy your chair over to a corner of the wall so that all they’re seeing is blank wall behind you. But I know for some of us, we’re having to work out of bedrooms right now. And if there’s a big pile of dirty laundry behind you or the door to your bathroom is open behind you, it just is going to be a little bit distracting. So be mindful of what is going to be visible in your screen to someone else to make sure that they can be totally focused in on you and not worried about or distracted by other things that might be happening.

Jenn Smith  34:49  

Yeah, for sure. I was just working with a client who had blinds and it’s different like the sun and the different depending on the times of the day too. So check your light like at noon. versus for you know, if the sun setting and it’s coming through the window or whatever. But, you know, she had to put a whole sheet over her blinds because it just, it was like causing those lines on her face like light lines on her face and it was not working, you couldn’t even see her and it was very distracting. So, yeah, you definitely want to make sure you’re checking your light, you’re checking what’s behind you, you don’t want to hold your phone, if you’re taking the call, you know the if it’s a video, and it’s you’re on your phone, like make sure you’ve got your phone set on something and you can kind of position yourself a little bit further, you don’t want to, you know, be a you know, super close or anything like that, just you know, kind of test it do all the testing ahead of time.

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:43  

Love that. Let’s talk about Mistake number three that job seekers make, which is one where the 101 versus the 201 interview strategy is especially important. The third mistake that jobseekers make that can accidentally sabotage their candidacy is not asking good questions. Can you share a little bit more about the distinction there?

Jenn Smith  36:10  

Yes, Lisa. And this is a personal pet peeve of mine as an interviewer, and I love interviewing people. I I’ve loved it throughout my entire career. And that’s probably why I’ve done it so many times. And when people do not ask good questions, I’m so disappointed. So, you know, going back to that the concept of the interviewee you know, the interview being a two way conversation and you interviewing them, as much as they’re interviewing you. This is where that comes in. And so I can’t tell you how many times I’ve interviewed someone and saved time at the end, to give them a chance to ask questions. And I asked if they have any questions, and they say no. And I’m so disappointed. How do you not have any questions? How do you not want to know what it’s like to work here, you know, and so I just think that this is a huge opportunity to get really deep and targeted in terms of, you know, getting information about what it’s going to be like to work there. So, um, you know, preparing questions ahead of time based on the person that you’re interviewing with is a really smart way to stand out as well. So, you know, in HR, if you’re going to be meeting with an HR director versus you know, the person that’s going to be your boss, the questions there can be targeted, so you could talk to HR about, you know, performance reviews, or retention strategies, or, you know, onboarding, or whatever those types of questions, you know, might be related to HR, and then talking to your hire your, your, your future boss around, you know, their leadership philosophy or how they like to be communicated. I mean, those are really good questions to ask, you know, different folks that you’re that you’re interviewing with, and having those prepared ahead of time, based on who you’re meeting with, is a sure way to both get really good information and to stand out. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  37:58  

Yeah, I think that do that example that we talked about earlier of being a product manager who’s doing a panel interview with three engineers, you know, you ask people different questions based on the level of your seniority relative to their level of seniority, you ask different questions relative to their department. So these would be peer level, folks, you could say, okay, knowing that we’re likely to be working together, if I’m selected for this position. What are some of the things that you appreciated most in a great product manager? or what have you seen some of the biggest challenges in the past with working collaboratively with the product team, and anything like that can give you some great intel on what you’re walking into. And if you want to walk into that, right, if somebody says something awful, like, the last product manager who was in this role just acted like such a typical woman, and you’re a woman, for that position, you that’s really helpful data for you to make a decision, let’s say, so unafraid to think about how you would relate to that person, right? If that person is above you, it can be a question of what’s the vision in the future and the strategy for this team or this company for this location? It can also be a question of, when you make a hire for this role. If that person is crushing it and doing a fabulous job, what does that empower or enable for you and for the rest of the team can just help you to see and contextualize what they need from you what they’re hoping that you’ll be an allow you to have some really good information for decision making purposes.

Jenn Smith  39:35  

Yeah, for sure. And weed out those red flags. You just mentioned, you know, again, getting information, you know, interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you. And I’ll say to like, if you ever get stuck, and you’re like, Oh, my gosh, I know I should have questions, but I’m stuck. Like, obviously, you can write them down. You can have them ready ahead of time. If you’re in person and you have questions written down. It’s totally fine to say hey, give me a second. I wrote some questions down. Let me just take a quick peek. Get that like, that’s totally normal, go ahead and do that, I would be impressed if somebody did that. The other thing is, if you do get stuck, you can never go wrong with asking someone about their career path. So, you know, or what they love about the company or what they don’t love about the company. And that’s actually a really good two part question. What do you love about the company? What do you not love about the company, and you can get really good information that you wouldn’t be able to find on Google or the company’s website. And that’s, you know, going to help you stand out as well. So if you ever get stuck, just ask about their career path, or what they love about the company? It’s a great question, and it’ll give you really good information.

Lisa Lewis Miller  40:38  

One question, Jen, that I know a lot of people want to know the answer to, but have a really tricky time in asking is about what the organizational culture is like, and what its values are like. And there’s the hesitation around answering asking that question or coming up with the appropriate way to phrase it is understandable, because that question really easily can come off, like, I don’t want to do a whole lot of work. So I hope your company all goes home at five, or what’s in it for me, like there can be a lot of entitlement, and it can be a real energy change to the conversation, depending on how you frame up a question about the company culture. But we also know it’s really important, you want to step into a company culture that’s in alignment with your values, and it’s going to enable you to live the kind of life and lifestyle right if we’re pulling in the four pillars of career fulfillment methodology here. So how do you recommend to folks to crack that nut?

Jenn Smith  41:31  

Yeah, this is great. And I guess like when you say, like, when I when we talk about level 101, and 201 here, so asking the question, like, how would you define the company culture is a one on one question to me. So yes, it’s a question. But it’s a boring question. It’s a very generic question. And you can probably find a lot of that on our company website. So so taking that a step further, and I know that you want to know about our company culture, but what do you want to know about the company culture? So I would say ask yourself, like, what do you want to know, specifically, and then frame up questions around that. So for example, if you’re, you know, a very growth oriented person, and you’re excited about the development and career growth at the company, ask what they do to support career goal growth, ask for examples, like, Hey, can you give me an example of someone that started at this level? Who’s now you know, two or three levels up? And so those questions will a get the person really thinking? And be it gives you really good answers around, you know, career growth and career development versus just asking, like, what is, you know, what is the company culture, like, you know, a couple other ones that I really like are is risk taking encouraged, you know, kind of like what happens when people fail, that can give you some really good insight into, you know, what you’re getting yourself into, in terms of in terms of the culture, you know, what makes you proud to work for this company? And again, what do you love and not love? I think those are all really good questions to get under, you know, under the layers, they’re around around the culture. Yeah, I

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:02  

think that’s so important. And some people will have a very specific thing that they are trying to screen for, right, they had a really bad experience with a past manager where they did this, or they didn’t do that. And if that’s in particular, a pain point that you want to be screening for. something great that you can consider doing is earlier in this conversation, when you were talking about this idea of answering a question with context, and giving a situation and an action and the outcome. And you can frame up a question to the interviewer that is asking them to give a little bit of detail at that level, something like, can you tell me about a time in the past when there’s been friction between the team leadership and the managers? Like, what’s that look like? How is it resolved? Or, you know, when someone on this team has made a mistake in the past, what has the process been to address that? Because if they’re rooting it in past performance and past behavior, the reason why people ask behavioral questions and interviews in the first place is because past performance is the best predictor of future performance. So you will be getting some excellent data points to again, allow you to feel like you have better context to make the right decision for you.

Jenn Smith  44:17  

Yeah. And what’s going to happen is, the the people that you’re interviewing with are all going to meet after your interviews, and they’re going to talk about you and they’re going to rate your responses and guaranteed they will say Wow, she asked really good questions or, man, I was so disappointed. They didn’t ask any questions. So that is a discussion point in every single debrief I’ve ever been in and it’s always one of those two things and the ones that ask really good questions are elevated to the top more likely to have a yes decision to move on.

Lisa Lewis Miller  44:53  

Love that. Well, let’s bring this in for a landing here. Jen, are there any last tips that you want to give to people Who are in interview situations to make sure that they can be as effective and successful without being artificial as possible? ,

Jenn Smith  45:08  

Yes, my bonus tip here. And this sounds so simple, but I’m telling you, majority of people do not do it is to send a thank you note, send individual emails, emails, it’s just an email, send an individual email to every single person you met with, you have a screen with the recruiter, send a thank you pull out one tiny little piece from your conversation, put that into the thank you don’t just send a generic copy and paste Thank you pull one little piece from the conversation into that email and send it within you know, within 24 hours of your conversation. Again, you will stand out, it will be discussed and it’ll elevate you as a candidate.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:47  

So simple, and yet so effective. I’m glad you’re emphasizing email because it used to be that i think you know, in the mail was the gold standard. And these days, if you put something into the mail, and by the time it gets to their desk, if it ever gets to their desk, you’ve you’ve left a different impression. And they’ve already made a decision on you and on the other candidates. So don’t let that get you in trouble. Right?

Jenn Smith  46:10  

Yep, email. Fast, Easy and do it. So many people don’t?

Lisa Lewis Miller  46:16  

Yeah, it’s easy to forget, if you even need to set a reminder for yourself on your phone, like before the interview, okay, make sure that before I go to sleep tonight, I’ve sent that email, whatever you need to do to set yourself up for success. Go ahead and do it.

Jenn Smith  46:29  

Yeah, yeah. And again, just one more point there. It even if you’re not perfect for this role that you’re interviewing for, you know, sending the thank you staying in touch with people, especially your recruiter, you know, never know, you might be setting yourself up for the next role, or the next meeting that they go into that they’re going to open another position or whatever that is. So you know, it’s always good to just, you know, kind of use your you know, use your senses and kind of get get that information out there and make sure that you set yourself up for, you know, future future roles.

Lisa Lewis Miller  47:00  

Amazing. Well, Jenmn, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show today. And if somebody is listening to this, and they are thinking, oh my goodness, that Jen sounds like a fount of information, she sounds brilliant and amazing. And I would love to get to learn from her expertise in this space. Don’t forget, the Jen is one of our certified career clarity coaches, and you can don’t really work with her. She’s incredible. I would trust her more than pretty much any other coach that I know to help you with the job search tactical execution stuff. So if that is a place where you feel like you’re stuck and you’re needing some support, definitely check out our website or just go to the show notes. To see the link to hear more information about Jen and her incredibly cool background, which by the way, includes started her career working in a potato chip factory. And if you want to hear that story, definitely go read her bio, and it gives you an opportunity to work with her. So Jen, thank you very much for coming on the Career Clarity Show yet again to share your brilliance with our listeners.

Jenn Smith  47:55  

It has been a pleasure, Lisa, thank you for having me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  48:05  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally find the work that fits your values and lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.