Episode 82: Identifying Our Influences in the Professional Space with Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

On today’s episode of the Career Clarity Show, we are talking about all the different influences that are factors into how we talk about ourselves and present ourselves in the professional space. Those influences can be anything from social norms and expectations, family norms and expectations, to things like your gender identity, your ethnicity, your race – all kinds of different pieces that can really shape how people have expectations of you and how you have expectations of yourself. 

This can be really illuminating for you no matter where your station in life, identity traits, or experiences you’ve had so far. We are joined by Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill. Nii Ato is a holistic career coach who helps ambitious professionals of color advance their careers while remaining true to themselves.

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome, clarity seekers. It’s Lisa Lewis Miller here with you today. And on today’s episode of the Career Clarity Show, we are talking about something that I’m so excited to get somebody else to come in and be a guest expert on because this is not an area where I can speak with authority, or with wisdom. It’s the space of talking about all the different influences that are factors into how we talk about ourselves and present ourselves in the professional space. Those influences can be anything from social norms and expectations, family norms and expectations, to things like your gender identity, your ethnicity, your race, all kinds of different pieces that can really shape how people have expectations of you, and how you have expectations of yourself, and what feels normal or what feels good to be sharing about in the professional world. And as a cis-het white, white bread American lady, I am not exactly a person who is in a great position of authority to be able to speak to such a thing with wisdom and with a whole lot of lived experience. So I’m really excited for today’s conversation, not only because I hope to be learning a ton, but because I hope that this can be really illuminating for you no matter where your station in life, no matter what your identity traits are, no matter what kind of experience you’ve had so far, to have an elevated awareness about all the different factors that go into how people including you present in the workforce, and how those different forces may be shaping what we do and don’t say how we do and don’t show up, how we might be communicating a certain thing, how we might not be communicating about certain things. So I think today’s episode is going to be really juicy and wonderful, especially for those of you who are wanting to expand your knowledge and expand your compassion towards people who have had all kinds of different experiences. Today’s guest on the Career Clarity Show is Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill. Nii Ato is a holistic career coach who helps ambitious professionals of color advance their careers while remaining true to themselves. He holds master’s level training in mental health counseling allowing him to provide a holistic approach to his work with his clients. He spent five years as a senior career advisor at IB exec, an online professional development platform, where he provide a job search resume and career guidance to over 5000 Global clients spanning mid career professionals up to C suite executives across industries. Nia earned his bachelor’s in psychology from Hamilton College and master’s and education master’s degrees in psychological counseling from teachers college, Columbia University. Nii Ato, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  3:24  

Thanks so much for having me, I appreciate the introduction. I appreciate the really well rounded intro you gave kind of prefacing what the conversation is going to be. And I wanted to say that, you know, you have authority to speak about whatever identities You carry on. So for example, as a woman, that would be one of your identities that might be seen as a more marginalized one within the global society writ large. That is something you’ve had experience with that you can talk about in terms of what challenges that can bring in navigating the workplace, the job search, you know, as a woman, and I myself have identities, they’re both privileged and not privileged. And so we can definitely, you know, get into more of that during the conversation, but just want to, you know, empower you and let you know that you have stuff to talk about, and share as well. You know, as we get into this today,

Lisa Lewis Miller  4:13  

Well, I really appreciate the the grace that you’re extending me there and in contextualizing me and my experience in the larger scope of different types of privilege and different types of context in the workplace. But I have to tell you, that part of my hesitancy to sort of own any piece of this conversation is because I am seeing, like a hell of a lot of white women coming from stations of incredible privilege, wanting to speak as if they have authority on all of this wanting to speak as if they are because of the the marginalization of the identity as a female, that therefore they can speak to all the different types of discrimination, systematic oppression, all of that. And so I just want to be really clear. With listeners and really clear with myself that I am a student in this space, and I am trying to learn a ton about all this, but I also sort of come very humbly to anybody who is wanting to be a teacher in this space and letting them share from their experiences, because the sorts of things that I’ve experienced as a woman are certainly going to be different from the things that people have experienced from all different types of identities. So it was a very long winded way of saying thank you for that, that grace and that space, but also thank you for being here. I want to share with listeners some of the reasons why I feel like you’ve got a really cool perspective to share, because you have had quite the international life and quite the cool cross cultural experience throughout your your life. So can you share with folks a little bit about the origin story?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  5:51  

Yeah, sure. So, um, I learned this term, through a book a friend gave to me during grad school, it’s called third culture kids. And what that means is it refers to children who grew up in cultures outside of their parents, you know, original home culture. And so that really was an eye opener for me, because again, that’s, that’s me, that’s my life. So briefly, I was born in London, live there for the first five years of my life for so moved to New York, and I turned six grew up in New York, from the ages six to 16, which is, you know, first through 10th grade. So very much my formative years were in New York City. And then my family is originally from Ghana, in West Africa. And so we moved home. At the end of my 10th grade year, I wasn’t super happy about it. But you know, my parents made the rules in time, of course, so moved home and I finished high school and gone and left in 12th grade, I came back to New York for college, and went to Hamilton upstate, as you mentioned earlier, and actually got the chance to do my junior year abroad in France. And so I was there for the full academic year in France. And that has given me the very fortunate your life experience to have lived, gone to school and worked in four different countries, you know, over the course of my you know, relatively short lifespan.

Lisa Lewis Miller  7:05  

I mean, what a What a cool thing to get to, to just see different ways of being in different spaces. And notice how even just living in different contexts can bring up some different experiences, different values, different social norms. And I, I feel like for today’s conversation, an important piece that I want to have you share with listeners is about your educational background, too. Because when you come to career conversations, you’re coming to it with a master’s in psychological counseling, which I think really shifts the way that you’re looking at conversations about what do you want to do? through a totally new lens? from an academic perspective, too? Can you share a little bit about that?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  7:55  

Yeah, sure. Um, during my master’s program, there was a huge emphasis on multicultural competency within the program is woven into into just about every class that we took. The reason for this is because when you’re in a counseling, you know, situation, clinically speaking, your presence is going to interact with the identities that the other that your client brings into the room, your identities and bears are going to mix. And they’re going to sometimes mesh or sometimes you rub up or bump up against each other based on what they are. And so a huge part of the program was simply becoming aware of your various identities, how they were formed, what they mean to you, how you process them. And of course, underlying that the attitudes by CS stereotypes and things like that, that come along with, for example, me being, you know, a straight, cisgendered, black, you know, guy and you know, male, all these things can factor into the room if the person across from me is opposite, in many respects. And so it helps me to think about ways not to force my beliefs on them. It helps me to be competent, and be open to what they’re bringing to the table. So that you know, someone who comes from a culture where parental influence is very strong, I wouldn’t see them as automatically being unmatched or overly dependent. I’d understand that. No, that’s normal for their cultural context. And I shouldn’t pathologize that because my cultural upbringing or context is different. And so allows you to have that type of awareness when you are dealing with individuals, so that you can have yourself not necessarily fade to the background, but be aware of how you’re going to interact and really make sure you’re supporting the client as best as possible. And so when it comes to the career space, having awareness of what people might bring to the table based just on who they are, can help you serve them better as far as understanding how they might be having difficulties navigating the job, search how they present in the job search, for example, in an interview situation where someone’s having a lot Trouble selling themselves? Well, why might that be? Might there be cultural influences personality influences, gender influences that might be impacting how they show up in that critical portion of trying to land a job. And so that training, schema lenses, it’s a lens, I can’t take off that I can’t, you know, shed or turn off. And so that’s been hugely influential in how I do my work.

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:24  

Well, let’s riff on that a little bit, say a little bit more about in both the work that you did sort of in more of an academic or clinical space, as well as the work that you’re doing today? How do you tend to see some of these different cultural, cultural pieces, personality pieces, gender pieces, influencing how we market ourselves, how we present ourselves and how we show up?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  10:49  

Sure, um, I think that, you know, nature and nurture, play really important roles, and how we know show up in our job search process. And we can think about, you know, culture, personality and gender, you know, as, let’s say, three broad categories. And let’s talk about selling yourself, because that is the fundamental act, you’re performing. When you’re in a job search, you are trying to say, Hey, I’m the best Pick me, and you know, on paper and in person is where you’re trying to convey. But what if you come from a culture where it’s a collectivist environment, so many, you know, African, African, Asian, and Latin x cultures have humility as perhaps a social virtue, right? Not all but many. And so if you were raised in that cultural context, you are going to prize the group above the individual if it’s Collective’s culture. And so if you are trained or nurture to prize the group above the individual, then when it comes time to writing a resume, which is all about you, or if you’re going to try to sell yourself in an interview, which is all about you, it might feel awkward, might even feel dissonant if you want to get really, you know, deep into it, to engage in that type practice. And so you might have difficulty performing the very act, you need to land a job. And so it’s about being able to raise awareness around those issues, and help you to also you know, fight or mitigate through them. If you want to talk about gender, for example, of course, this is not you know, I want to be careful not to make blanket statements about all women or all men. But if we, you know, take a broad approach, many societies are patriarchal and how they’re set up. And so within patriarchal society, men are taught to boast and be proud, and to brag about whatever it is they’ve done, whether warranted or not, a lot of overconfident men around you know, running around out there. Um, and women, on the other hand, are, you know, often taught to be demure to defer to be much more, you know, modest about their achievements, and even to share credit even when they don’t have to. And so that can show up you know, in how resumes written that might be way more weed than I in a resume or in an interview situation. And so just using you know, culture and gender, those are two ways that it can really show up in impact you in a job search process or interview process because of these identities you carry or the context you grew up in.

Lisa Lewis Miller  13:22  

Well, let me ask you, I I only having lived and worked primarily in the United States, I curious when you’re, you’re noticing these cultural influences into the ways that we show up, I can absolutely see how there would be a real sort of friction point between somebody who grew up say in a Latinx culture where humility and being humble was really important than job searching in an American culture where there are a lot of values and virtues placed on you know, talking about your accomplishments and owning those from either from your work or from your academic background, do you have a sense of how the job search piece functions differently in some of those cultures where humility is more of a virtue?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  14:11  

That’s a really interesting question. I mean, I you know, most my experience has been here in the US. I would imagine that and you know, when I spoke to my clients, you know, who worked internationally you also as an ivy exec, I think that they you play by the rules of where you live, right, as they say, and what you know, when they roam, do what Romans do. I remember whenever I spoke to German clients for as an example, I remember how fact base their resumes were, as an example, there was no fluff whatsoever, you know, heavy emphasis on responsibilities, and just being a straight, you know, line from point A to point B in their descriptions. And I think they’re also reflected in how they spoke about themselves. So I tried No, to be sensitive to my American context and the level of self most required here. But trying to mesh that with what worked in their environment, understand well, how within your context, can you allude or introduce a talk about, you know, what you can contribute without violating your social norms. And so, I think that your the power dynamics may differ, you know, in cultures where there’s a lot of respect and authority given to those in positions of power. And so maybe you’re not, as, you know, bold in proclaim what you’ve done, but you might, you know, be more humble in the way you go about talking about, you know, your contribution achievements, based on a cultural context. And so I think that what gets done in the US will, you know, is obviously not going to be look the same as what is done in India, or in Germany, or even in the UK, perhaps, things will look slightly more different based on what the norms are there. But I think that individuals in those contexts will navigate in the way that is most suitable, you know, for that context, to deliver their achievement stories and present themselves best, you know, within job search situation. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:17  

Yeah, and one of the things that that kind of came up for me, as you were talking about that, sort of trying to fit into your context piece, is a is a question about kind of what’s privileged in different contexts, because I can imagine, you know, knowing that the United States is a country that has a pretty strong patriarchal history and a pretty strong racist history. There are types of identities that are privileged in the United States that might not be privileged, or that that would have a different balances of power in different cultures, different countries, different contexts. And so I guess one of the other questions I wanted to ask is, you know, where do you see some of the most interesting differences of cultural norms and contexts and power dynamics across the world?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  17:14  

Wow, that’s a really big question. Um, I’m not sure that I have enough knowledge, you know, to, to give a great answer to that. Because the United States is a really is a pretty unique country, in terms of the level of diversity here, I was having a conversation with someone I met recently, through a class that I’m taking, who’s, you know, from the UK, and we were talking about, you know, how, you know, the United States is going through, you know, a bit of a crisis right now, that is, in part, you know, due to the level of diversity in the country in this country, whereas more homogenous societies, you know, may not be going through, you know, similar upheavals, because there’s, you know, a larger majority that has a shared cultural heritage, identity, you know, way of thinking things like that. I think the interesting thing about the US context is that, you know, it’s this experiment that’s trying to bring a whole bunch of very diverse people together, and had to learn how to, you know, live, work and play together, hopefully better and better as time goes on. I think, you know, bringing in bringing the conversation back to the US, which I feel more comfortable speaking, I don’t want to speak out of turn, you know, about anywhere else. You know, over here, you know, obviously, the biggest power dynamics are your race, gender, and sexual orientation. You know, when it comes to workplace, you know, we’ve heard recently about cases where individuals and LGBTQ community don’t yet have protection from being fired in many places across the country, just the reason that they are identifies LGBTQ. We have recent legislation about you know, black people, crown legislation about you know, protecting black hairstyles, right and, and having those not being discriminated against because, you know, I can’t, you know, slick my hair back with gel, you know, and have it straight, you know, with apart my hair doesn’t do that. And so, you know, and of course with gender, you know, still to this day, we are you know, I was celebrating is the wrong word, but commemorating equal pay day, you know, for a black woman, Latin ex woman, Asian woman who all trailing behind, you know, white woman and pay but white women are trailing white men and pay and so we have to be, you know, focus on I guess, our house first, where we currently live and really, you know, continue to tackle and, you know, break down these unnecessary wrong, you know, barriers and power dynamics that you know, don’t be here. You know, long story short, if everyone is able to progress, you know, a tide lifts all boats, you know, as they say. And so we just need to break these things down and bring them to awareness, educate ourselves about them and really work to turn them around for the benefit of everyone. We know that diverse companies perform far better than companies that are, you know, more homogenous, women led companies perform excellently. And so there’s a whole host of things that need to be pushed and brought forward in order for the workplace and society, you know, at large to just function better.

Lisa Lewis Miller  20:35  

Yeah, I think that one of the interesting things about this sort of reckoning point that the United States is that is that, we’re noticing that creating the kind of diverse, beautiful, rich companies and corporate cultures that we want, isn’t just as easy as passing a couple of pieces of legislation or adding a couple things to company policy. And one of the things that you’re bringing up in this question of how we show up, is that some of the cultural norms that we may have been brought up within, or the societal expectations that shape how we show up, may have some friction points with the kind of corporate culture that we’re wanting to walk into. And so I, one of the questions that’s coming up, is this question of wanting to both hold the space for someone to be showing up in a way that’s authentic to their culture, their upbringing, their personality, you know, the different identity traits that feel really important to them? But also, sort of noticing and trying to figure out how do we navigate the friction, when maybe a workplace is really needing folks to show up in a more extroverted, more loud and proud way about their accomplishments? Is there space for for for both for people to come into an organization and then learn some of the different ways that that organization is asking them to show up in a way that doesn’t feel like it’s in violation of their personality and their culture? Or is it typically a better practice for people to look for organizations that, that I mean, almost have a little bit more homogeneity, towards the specific cultural or personality or identity factors that that they already hold?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  22:31  

Right? That’s a really interesting framing of the question. I like how you put it, because it gives me another aspect to consider as far as the corporate accompany side and what they can, you know, do, let me start on the individual side, because we’re both coaches, and we want to help individuals, you know, figure this stuff out and navigate successfully. A big part of, you know, what I try to do is to meet people where they are and having them as I said, you need to authentically navigate their job search process. And so I don’t want someone to have to compromise or change their values in order to just you know, to get a job, because that’s not going to be, you know, not going to be long lasting, gonna be very unhappy relatively quickly. And so some things I think about, you know, when it comes to helping folks navigate are their key points. So for example, in talking about achievements, you know, as you gave, as the example, remembering that, you know, your hard work is what created these achievements. And so it’s about, you know, being comfortable taking ownership of what you’ve done, and realizing that your contributions, you know, are valid have value, and demonstrate your value add, you know, for a future company, sorry for the liberation there. And so, that is, you know, a starting point is just taking ownership and recognizing deserve full credit for outcomes that are a result of your work, right. And that’s what goes into your resume. And that’s what we’re going to talk about in you know, an interview, kind of the next level up from that is that, you know, your achievements are facts. So your hard work leads to achievement, and your achievements are factual in nature, we’re not going in there making stuff up, you know, I’m not going to go and say, Oh, I saved the company, $25 million, when in fact, I didn’t, that’s just the, you know, straight up lie, and is, you know, in violation or just general, you know, moral and social code. But if you’re coming from a culture where you know, self promotion is, is uncomfortable for you, you’re taught not to do it in many different ways. If you stick to the facts, then you bs facts just happen to make you look good. And then you can just talk about facts, you know, in that way, and be very straightforward about it. And these will advertise you, regardless of how you feel about them, they’re still going to sell you well because they are true, right? And that’s another way to you know, sort of approach and comment it in a different angle or name shoot yourself. A couple you know, other things is that, you know, if you are someone who values the group above the individual, a lot of things that work out And teams. And so these are team achievements. And people feel uncomfortable, you know whether they come from individual culture or collectivist and taking credit for Team achievements. And I get that these achievements you can still own, but also you can talk about them in a way that, you know remains true to what happens. So you can focus on what piece of the puzzle Did you have full ownership of right, it might have been one phase or project or particular deliverable, you own that. And if you did it, well, you can talk about that, you can also put that into larger context. If your deliverable was part of a larger, you know, project or initiative that enabled that larger goal to become successful, you can situate your contribution within the larger picture. So you contribute as this larger overall thing, by owning your piece of the puzzle. So the context is important. And y’all always, you know, share credit, you know, if you collaborated, partnered with someone, or were part of a team, go ahead and say that. And then just really quickly, finally, the main thing is that your achievements helped other people. And so if you’re coming from background, where it’s the group that matters, your work helped others, whether it’s your colleagues, supervisors, or company at large, or your customers, if you’re impacting other people, that’s really remaining true to your values. And you can certainly share that, you know, in a job search situation on your resume in an interview, and show up authentically, you know, to that situation. On the company side, and, you know, please, you know, cut me off from the phone going too long. I think that it’s not about necessarily seeking companies that are maybe more homogenous, or if you’re Japanese, and you’re actually only applying to the, you know, Japanese companies that have an office in whatever city you live in, I’m not sure if it’s nice about doing that. But that might be comfortable. I’m not saying don’t do that. I think that, you know, helping companies to grow their, you know, cultural competency and awareness can really support be more inclusive in the workplace. I saw this really great cartoon that someone shared with me, there’s a woman of color, let’s say she, I think she’s a black woman, and then the cartoon. And there’s like, you know, seven or eight white men sitting across the table from her. And one of them says, you know, can you tell us, you know, what value can contrary to our company, and all these guys, they look like bros, you know, frat bros just sitting there doing whatever, you know, as this single, you know, black woman is waiting to try and answer this question. And that’s, you know, maybe an extreme, but that’s not far from the reality of what, you know, corporate leadership and hiring process look like. And so I think it’s about, you know, intentionally looking to diversify senior leadership, I think it’s garbage, when people say they can’t find qualified people of color. You know, it’s more so a lack of will versus effort, you know, it’s not as if we don’t have HBCUs. It’s not as if we don’t have incredibly diverse schools all over the country that you can recruit from, if you don’t have, you know, qualified black candidates to graduate from top MBA programs, you know, all over the country all over the world. So it’s, it’s not a lack of pipeline, it’s a lack of creating and looking for and establishing the pipeline. And so I’ll stop there. See, if you want to follow up on anything,

Lisa Lewis Miller  28:18  

Oh, my gosh, well, they’re I feel like they’re, like 10 different things we could talk about, I have heard this pipeline argument, like, well, we just, we got I gotta change the pipeline, we got to address the pipeline. And it’s like, it’s hard to take that kind of an argument completely seriously. Because I sort of acknowledged that people are feeling like they don’t have enough to choose from. And wonder how much of that is a problem of their own making, because of bias practices, in terms of how you’re looking for candidates, if you are doing the appropriate things to make sure that candidates with diverse backgrounds are going to be moving forward. But I remember it’s, this is another place where it’s just complicated and tricky, because in the United States, there are these different regulations to protect individuals who are part of certain classes, who have certain identity traits. And it’s this weird paradox of their rules against discriminating against people who are in any of these protected classes, these protected groups. And self identifying as part of these groups is a great way to increase diversity in the workforce. But also if you self identify as part of these groups. A lot of companies have practices where they won’t even look at you because they don’t want to have the appearance that they have been making a decision one way or another, based on being part of a protected class. And so I, and I feel like this same tension pops up. When you notice, let’s say that someone gets hired into an organization, and their supervisor is going through a 360, or review process of some sort and looking at their performance and is noticing areas that might be areas for improvement are areas where there’s a perceived weakness. But that particular identity trait or personality trait is actually a space of some level of personal pride or cultural pride. That way of showing up may both be perceived by a supervisor as something that needs to be changed or improved within the cultural or within sort of the corporate cultural context, if you will, but also preserving that person’s uniqueness. And that part of their personality is a really important part of, of creating and cultivating the kind of diversity that we all say that we want within organizations. So I, I guess, I feel like the question is, how do you how do you help folks continue to navigate and thread that needle between showing up authentically as yourself. And also knowing that organizations may need different things from you? And I’m curious, knowing that you’ve done so much work on resumes, you know, when you encounter this kind of a question on a resume, or somebody wanting to include information about their past experiences or their background that would potentially reveal that they’re part of a protected class? Have you help people navigate that?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  31:39  

Right? That can be really tricky. An example comes to mind where I had a black woman who had been working, who has been working in higher ed for almost 30 years, she had risen, you know, quite senior, you know, had been the dean of students had held, you know, diversity, leadership positions within Office, the President, you know, so you know, quite senior in her career, and she’s looking to pivot and into industry. And in one situation, she was the first black woman, as dean of named Dean of Students for this particular college. And so I had written into her resume, I write what I call scope statements, a brief explainer underneath your position title to tell the story of the position. And I had written language, you know, lumens, the fact that she was the first black woman hired for this position. And given that she’s going for diversity roles, I thought that might be relevant might be helpful. It’s the truth of her story. But she herself felt uncomfortable as far as flagging, that, you know, so early on. Because, you know, of course, when she shows her for the interview, virtually, you know, they’ll see that she’s a black woman, they look at her LinkedIn, this, you’ll see she’s a black woman. But did she want to telegraph that, right? And this could come in other ways for people whether showing, you know, your black part of the Black Student Union, if you’re, you know, recent graduate, if you are part of the, you know, National Black MBA Association, for example, there are all sorts of different, you know, ways that your Asian American, you know, several different ways to telegraph that. So, it’s it’s tricky, you know, I don’t know that there’s a hard and fast, you know, rule for helping folks navigate thing, it’s what they feel comfortable doing at the end of the day, because it’s their candidacy, you know, it’s not mine. I think that it’s important, you know, to be able to, you know, feel comfortable and taking ownership of who you are and what you bring to the table. But, you know, given you know, based on what you said society does allow all of us to show up in the same way. You know, women aren’t allowed, you know, to show up being bold and brash, and, and, you know, very sure themselves, they are labeled in certain ways, bossy bitch, you know, all these, you know, terrible terms, if a woman happens to be assertive and knows her mind and knows how to get her way. But that’s what a leadership suppose a leader supposed to, but you get these poor, you know, these negative labels, if you’re a woman and display those those tendencies. You know, then lately on additional layers of negativity, if you are a woman of color, doing so, you know, an Asian man who is knocked for not having enough presence, or you know, executive leadership, present, things like that, because maybe he’s a bit more humble in his overall presentation. And so, I think that, rather than put the onus on the individual in terms of how they show up, I want to kick it back to the corporations, you know, you know, the work that you and I do, of course, we’re trying to help our clients show up as best as they can. And so we’ll try and help them navigate in ways that is true. How can you turn this up a little bit more hacking dial this down a little bit more? We’re gonna, you know, play with the dials of, you know, how they show up to help them, you know, show it better. But at the end of the day, you know, corporate corporations have a lot of responsibility in turning tide, they they’re the gatekeepers, right now they have the power. And so taking a slight sidestep, you know, to talk about the social situation, oppressed people are not responsible for ending their oppression, let’s go back to the corporates, a job applicants are responsible for changing the internal culture of a company, right, they don’t have the power to do that, they don’t have the power to have the company be a more welcoming space for diverse individuals, it’s the company’s job to do the internal work through, you know, not not one yearly, you know, you know, racial sensitivity training, but through a concerted long term effort to, you know, diversify the leadership, diversify the recruiting pipeline, build in cultural competency and awareness so that you’re creating an environment that is going to be welcoming and attractive to diverse candidates who come in, it’s not worth anybody’s time, if you hire a few people of color, and they leave within 18 months, because it’s toxic environment for them. That’s not on them that’s on the company. And so the corporation’s you know, need to really to step up, you know, and do that, you know, hard work of confronting, you know, a cultural change, you know, from whatever the majority culture is in that company, to modifying it to be welcoming, inclusive, and equitable to those people who come from, you know, marginalized identities.

Lisa Lewis Miller  36:39  

Well, if somebody’s listening to this, and they are in a position where they are hiring, or they’re managing individuals, and they are wanting to take more action from their station, knowing that corporations at their core are just a composite of individuals, what are some questions that people should be asking themselves and thinking about to make sure that they are creating a culturally competent, culturally sensitive, culturally inclusive kind of workforce or workspace such that any sort of candidate is going to feel really welcome and, and like, they can show up a little bit more fully within that context?

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  37:17  

Sure, um, one of the first things that popped into my mind as you’re included, concluding your question was the organization should reflect on how they supported their black employees and employees of color more broadly, but black employees specifically during the level the social, you know, in social justice, you know, summer, you know, that we had, in the wake of, you know, George Floyd, Briana Taylor, Alton Sterling, you know, all these know, different killings that happened, right, recently, um, that was, you know, as, as a black person living in this country, that was a really, really challenging time. It’s hard to, you know, post on, you know, LinkedIn about job search stuff, you know, when someone who looks like me just got killed, you know, a couple of days before. And so, you know, if a company can take an honest look at how they supported, you know, black people during that time and say, did we do a good job? If not, what can we do better going forward? That can start to make real, you know, tangible change. Even just thinking this is a slight sidestep. But you know, during COVID, how did you support your employees writ large, during COVID? Were you conscientious and provided for their needs, making accommodations, and all this stuff is massive change, we’re all you know, going through. So it’s almost like having a heart check for the company, in terms of how it supports people during difficult times. That’s, I think, a really good place to start. And the reason I’m going this direction is because there’s an empathy gap when it comes to issues of race, gender, sexual orientation. And if we can bridge the empathy gap, and you know, if we want to say that, you know, corporations are people, if you are that viewpoint, if the corporation can develop, you know, a better heart, you know, for who it brings it, who its employees are, then the corporation can start to make that turn, you know, towards being more inclusive and accommodating. And then, of course, you know, what are our policies? who’s involved in the hiring process? is a diverse team who is doing the interviewing, or is it you know, three people who all went to Harvard Business School, who are handling every single interview and hiring in there image, you know, these are really simple changes to make and in my opinion, you know, where do you do your recruiting? You know, just because someone there are a lot of, you know, really high degree people who, you know, aren’t you can say, they’re not that smart. You know, like having a degree from a from a great institution doesn’t necessarily determine your character, your work ethic, or even just literally how intelligent you are. Maybe you had a great connection that got you in, you know, so you know, It’s about kind of changing, you know, altering, broadening your success metrics and who you consider to be the ideal candidate, you know, name brand isn’t everything. And, and there are characteristics like grit, you know that we’ve seen different places far outweigh the brand name of your institution that you went to, um, I feel like I’m going off a little bit. But these are just a couple of the things you know, that we can, we can look into the empathy gap, you know, having heart change at a corporate level, really looking at your hiring policies and practices, where you’re sourcing people who’s doing the hiring, and then thinking about broaden your definition of the ideal candidate, those things can really help you to start bringing in people who don’t look like everyone who’s currently there, and also create an environment where they’re going to feel welcome, included, and have you know, an equitable stake in how things proceed at all stop there?

Lisa Lewis Miller  40:59  

Well, I think that the empathy gap piece, kind of ties all the things that you were talking about together, you know, how do we have more empathy towards the needs that people from different cultural backgrounds would would have? How do we have more empathy towards the things that people with different family structures are needing during a pandemic? How do we have more empathy towards the people who have different levels of ability, you know, the disabled community is a space where the same kind of lack of empathy and lack of understanding and lack of thoughtfulness can really be an incredibly painful experience in corporate right now, I think that asking and challenging each individual within an organization to continue both making decisions on a personal level, but also pushing for larger policies at an organization wide level, that have empathy at their core, sounds like a really solid step towards creating a space that feels like it has cultural competence, personality, competence, identity competence in such a way that people will feel psychologically safe enough and seen enough to feel like they can be contributing and providing their best work, no matter what their background has looked like, or no matter what their identity traits are.

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  42:24  

Yeah, you know, I really liked how you how you draw the point of, you know, contributing, being your best self and feeling, you know, support and free to do so. I think that if, you know, corporations can create those environments, you are going to get the, if you treat people great, they’re gonna work. It’s not, you know, rocket science, you know, if I can show up every day at work, knowing that my full authentic self is accepted, I don’t have to hide who I am, I don’t have to modify my you know, mode of speech, you know, code switch, you know, something a lot of people of color have to do, you know, I don’t worry about you know, how my hair is because it’s not corporate enough, quote, unquote, and things like that, if I’m going to do my full, authentic self, you’re gonna get the best out of me, you know, each and every day. There’s a friend of mine, who I went to Hamilton with, I reconnected recently. And he wrote a piece that discussed how, you know, he’s in a very senior marketing position, you know, the first man of color, they put in this major corporation, this role. And he wrote in this piece that they didn’t get the best out of him, because he didn’t feel safe. So he did his work, he hit his goals he hit his target do we supposed to do, but he could perhaps done even more, had he felt safe and comfortable needs to be his full self? And that’s what you know, companies are missing out on are you getting the best out of your employees? And if not, it’s might because they’re not feeling safe to be their authentic selves?

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:51  

Well, if somebody has been listening to this interview, and they are thinking that they are just loving everything you’ve been sharing, they’ve been so appreciative of your wisdom and the contextualizing you’re doing of all these things that you’ve learned and experiences that you’ve had, where can they get more? Sure.

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  44:09  

So my my website is avenircareers.com. That’s avenir careers.com I’m also on Instagram and Twitter the handle at Avenue careers on of course, I’m on LinkedIn, if you type in Nii Ato, I’m like the only one literally in the world. So a name should pop up. If you want to find me all and connect with me on LinkedIn.

Lisa Lewis Miller  44:34  

Awesome. On the ado, thank you so much for being here with us on the Career Clarity Show today and for being willing to dive into some really challenging, sticky, hard, complicated conversations and questions that I think can help all of us think about ways we can show up more compassionately, more empathetically, and more inclusively. Yeah,

Nii Ato Bentsi-Enchill  44:55  

Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate the way you got to the conversation. Fun. I hope that this has been helpful to all those who are listening out there. I’d love to come back and do it again some other time.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:12  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Get Career Clarity: Finally Finds The Work That Fits Your Values and Lifestyle. For the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at  GetCareerClarity show.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.