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Episode 78: Empower Yourself in Money Management with Maggie Germano

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

Today is all about managing your money and making your money work for you. The delightful Maggie Germano joins us to talk about her work and to talk about how to think about money without feeling judged. 

Today’s episode is for you if you want to feel more empowered around your finances and more so that you can walk away from today’s episode feeling more clear, more encouraged, more excited about how to use money as a tool to create the kind of life and the career opportunities that you are wanting.

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome, clarity seekers, it is Lisa Lewis Miller. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:34  

And I’m so excited to have you here today because we’re talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart, which is managing your money and making your money work for you. And as an economics major in undergrad, I was deciding between going down the path of psychology, the path of art history or the path of economics. And ultimately, I chose to go down the path of getting my major in economics because I felt like understanding how people make decisions about money, understanding the math and the science behind money and understanding some of the neuroscience, the psychology, the emotions, the fear, the stuff, the baggage around money, was going to be really helpful for me in the rest of my life. And goodness knows I did not go into a career in investment banking, or consulting or the places that a lot of econ majors typically go. But I feel like one of the real gifts of that background in the work that I do today is that understanding how to set yourself up with a money plan for success is a huge piece of being able to feel empowered to make the career decisions that you want to make. So with all that said, I am really excited for today’s episode of the podcast because we are diving into all things finances. I am bringing on the delightful Maggie Germano to talk about her work to talk about how to think about money without feeling judged. To think about the wage gap to talk about negotiation. There’s all kinds of good stuff that we might get into in today’s episode. And so I’m excited if you are here and along for the ride. So today’s episode is going to be for you. If you are the sort of person who has ever felt some Heebie Jeebies and funkiness about money, asking for it, talking about it. weirdness with making it feeling worried that you’re making too much or too little wondering about other people’s judgments about money. Today’s episode of the podcast is also for you if you want to feel more empowered around your finances. and empowerment can come in a lot of different forms, which I imagine we’ll probably talk about a lot today. But one of those is that knowledge is power. So purely just understanding what’s going on in your life what’s going on in your psychology, what’s going on in your bank account can create tons of confidence and clarity. Even if you don’t totally love the answers to what your current status is are. So we’re gonna get into all of that and more so that you can walk away from today’s episode feeling more clear, more encouraged, more excited about how to use money as a tool to create the kind of life and the career opportunities that you are wanting. Now our guest today, Maggie Germano is a feminist and financial coach for women. She helps women improve their relationship with money so they can take control of their financial future, which she does through one on one financial coaching workshops, writing on her blog and Forbes column. And through speaking engagements. She also founded Money Circle, which is a safe space for women to talk about money without feeling judged. And the podcast of the same name. Maggie is also trained as a salary negotiation facilitator by AAUW. And when is she isn’t talking about money you can find Maggie spending time with her husband and her Corgi OMG in Riverdale Park, Maryland. So with that, Maggie, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Maggie Germano  3:47  

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:50  

Well, it is a delight to have somebody who loves talking about money and choices and empowerment and possibilities and the future and reality to just share some wisdom on the ways in which money can be more of a pair of wings rather than an anchor in our lives. But I want to start today’s conversation from the place of why why you care about this. What got you passionate and interested in this as a topic?

Maggie Germano  4:16  

Yeah, it’s a great question because it was definitely not a clear straight path for me. I went to college for political science, I moved to DC because I wanted to be in the environmental justice field and advocating for climate change legislation, those sorts of things. And so that was what I initially did when I moved to DC. And I ended up working at a very large nonprofit where they do really fantastic work around the world. But when you’re an employee in an organization that’s that big. You get kind of trapped in the bureaucracy, you have a hard time making or having it be clear of the impact that you’re making. And so I felt like my skills were not being really used, I couldn’t really see how I was making a difference in the world. And I really wanted to feel like I was making more of that impact and actually see it and have a little bit more control over my schedule and my time because I felt like I was spending a lot of time in the office without having much to do generally. And so I didn’t know what that was going to look like. So I started kind of seeking out opportunities to sort of learn about what are the other kind of career options for me, that makes sense. And I knew I wanted to work on women’s issues. In particular, I thought maybe it would be reproductive rights or something like that. So I started volunteering and getting involved in leadership opportunities and all these different nonprofits in the area. And the more I was doing that, the more I realized I was meeting women who were struggling with money in one way or another. So having a ton of student loan debt or feeling trapped in credit card debt, or feeling like they never actually learned how to manage their money, but then they were ashamed that they didn’t know how to manage their money. And just generally feeling like they didn’t know how to communicate about these topics. And there was a lot of shame around that. And so I’ve always kind of enjoyed learning about personal finance, just on my own. 

Maggie Germano  6:15  

One of the managers that I had one of my first managers when I was an intern gave me a book about women and personal finance. And I was hooked. After that, I thought it was so interesting, I wanted to learn everything I could. But it was just something that was kind of on the side, never something I thought I would do. But the more I was meeting these women who were having these struggles, the more I really saw the connection between personal finance, financial literacy, and women’s empowerment more broadly. So being able to make decisions for your own life, feeling capable of making big decisions, or making changes, having that kind of sense of independence and confidence in your life, being able to leave toxic relationships or toxic jobs and how there’s such a clear connection between those kinds of opportunities, and financial security. And so as I was seeing that I saw, okay, there’s a connection between my passion and interest in personal finance and my passion for helping women empowering women and help doing my part to make sure that women are gaining more power within our society, generally. So I started just offering support to the women I was meeting, you know, saying, I’ll sit down with you help you make a budget, I’ll sit down with you help you create a credit card payment plan, or even just be a sounding board. And so from there, I decided I wanted to really focus on a lot of the emotional aspects that come up around money, not just talk about the numbers, because the numbers are really important. But if you don’t deal with some of the more emotional things that are going on, or the behavioral things that are going on, I could tell you exactly what to do with the numbers. And that doesn’t mean it’s actually going to be helpful. So I decided to get certified as a coach so that I could really focus on more of those behavioral issues. I’m also certified as a financial educator, so I have the actual number side of things. And it kind of all snowballed from there, starting my business as a coach and moving, moving into workshops, and writing and all that good stuff.

Lisa Lewis Miller  8:22  

I love that. I love that the value of empowering women and helping them to have access to opportunities and possibilities and hope and futures and excitement is what drove you into the work that you do. Because I think that the connection is super, super clear from the outside. If you are external to somebody and you’re looking in, you can see that man, the more command you feel like you have over your financial situation, even if your financial situation isn’t perfect, the more likely it is that you’re going to be able to set yourself up for other opportunities. And there’s a meme going around right now, that says something to the effect of a lot of the things that we believe, take courage in life, like leaving a job or starting a business moving to a new place, whatever, actually just take money. And I kind of love the meme, because it brings up that there’s there’s certainly the emotional and the mindset, and the attitude piece of this, right, the willingness and the courage to take a step. But that all of that gets a lot easier when you feel like you have a strong foundation and a strong platform to be making decisions and choices from and so I maybe that’s a good place to dive in for today on the connection between financial literacy and courage that you tend to see in your work and in the people who you work with.

Maggie Germano  9:57  

Yeah, I mean, all of those points are So important because I think I mean, it also ties into something that I talk about a lot related to social justice and the different systems that are in place. And there’s just so much to consider when we’re talking about money. It’s not just about like, just align yourself with a budget and everything will be fine. Like, there are a lot of things that block people from having that kind of capability. And it’s oversimplified. And so I think it’s really important to make sure that that’s part of the conversation, when we’re talking about money, no one, not everyone’s starting on the same playing field, a lot of people have different privileges that they’re starting with that maybe they’re not even aware of that, but it’s helping them kind of get propelled forward. So I talked about that a lot, as well. But when it comes to the courage piece, I think it is important, I would say, to recognize that you are capable of doing something differently. Not even not even taking into play the different barriers that you might be facing, depending on you know, what your intersections are of your identity, or where you are in society. But in looking back at these are, these are the financial decisions I’ve made in the past, and maybe I’m really frustrated with them, or I wish I had done something differently. It can be really scary to think about looking at those actions, and then devising new ways forward and coming up with solutions to move forward. So I think that’s where I see a lot of the courage piece tying in where it’s accessing the courage to ask for help, so that you can actually get the support from whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a family member, whether it’s a coach or a financial adviser, but asking for help in the first place so that you can start understanding the steps you need to take forward. I think that that is probably one of the braver steps you can take and it that can be really hard for people to get there to start. Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:02  

I talk a lot about sort of in in the more career space, this idea of the the Yes, and mindset when it comes to evaluating your current situation. The yes being like, you are where you are. And it’s okay. Right, we don’t need to shame and blame you. We don’t need to berate past you for the decisions that got you to where you are. Some of those decisions certainly were under your control. Some of the things that led to where you are might be mindsets, or beliefs that you adopted as a tiny baby because of your parents fears or beliefs or the adults around you when you were growing up their fears or beliefs, they could come from cultural influences, ethnic influences, religious influences, that you didn’t actively say, Yes, I want to adopt this, you know, as a four year old to be my guiding principle for the rest of my days. And there are systemic things that make it more challenging systemic, oppressive oppression, right? The systemized racism, all kinds of factors that you didn’t choose, you didn’t necessarily want to turn out this way that are leading to the moment where you find yourself at any given time. And if you can both, say, Okay, this is what it is, and it’s okay. I don’t need to beat myself up. I don’t need to dwell and be angry, or be fearful or heartbroken or anything permanently. And yes, I can accept this. And in this moment, this awareness, this pause is giving me an opportunity to ask for help, to think about things differently, to try a different way of showing up to look at some of those factors that might have contributed to how I got to where I am to see if there are any that I can I have any influence or control over can be a really powerful and courageous way to feel like you’re reclaiming a little bit of the control and a little bit of the agency in a system that inherently is going to have some things that are outside of our control. Right. We never know when a medical emergency is going to pop up. We never know if there’s something coming down the pipeline that causes you to be laid off or for your industry to be shaken up the way that that Coronavirus has really affected the economy and the world. So giving yourself permission to both see and look at your past with open eyes without judgment or hate in them. And the permission to choose to try to play with some new and different things moving forward that might enable you to move in the direction that feels more like the way that you want to be going is important and scary and takes a heck of a lot of courage and absolutely takes A lot of vulnerability and raising your hand to ask for support. And to sort of bring somebody in to say, here’s what my current situation looks like, I know it’s not perfect, what can I do?

Maggie Germano  15:15  

Right and recognizing that once you’ve made that decision, that doesn’t mean that everything’s going to change overnight. So that’s something, I have to remind my clients all the time, like it took you how long to get to where you are now, for better for worse, if you’re No, you’re in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, your 60s, wherever you are, it’s taking you your whole life to develop the beliefs and the habits and the behaviors that you have developed. It’s not going to take three days or three weeks, or even three months to change all of that and see yourself in a completely different way and start behaving in a completely different way. So not only forgiving yourself for past mistakes, but also being kind and gentle with yourself as you’re moving forward and trying to develop new solutions and implement new behaviors and change your mindset. It’s going to be a longer journey. It’s not something that’s just there’s a deadline that you’ll hit overnight or over after even a couple months of working with an expert. Just so just remembering to give yourself that grace as you move along as well.

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:21  

Yeah, absolutely. I recently discovered the United Way does a big project around Alice. Are you familiar with the ALICE acronym?

Maggie Germano  16:33  

I’m not actually.

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:34  

So I am a little embarrassed because I don’t remember what that what the A stands for right now. So for those of you listening, if you’re listening to me explain this. And you’re thinking, Lisa, that’s 100% wrong. Go look in the show notes from today’s episode, because I will go look it up. And we’ll get it right now put it there for all of you to use and learn from. But Alice, like the name stands for something to the effect of income, limited limited income currently employed is the lice, the lice, but I got to figure out what the a is Alice, but it’s a segment of our world, of our community of our society, where you’re employed, you’re working 40 hours a week, but the amount that you’re making in your current situation makes it incredibly difficult to generate wealth, incredibly difficult to feel like you can move up into new and different opportunities, incredibly difficult to feel like there’s any mobility that’s available to you. Because you feel like you’ve already got all your time spoken for. You are barely making ends meet. And there are different kinds of pressures and financial challenges that come when you’re in that that era of life. And it was so eye opening. There’s a great online exercise that I’ll put into the show notes too. It is a essentially the United Way created what they call an online poverty simulator. And they have you walk through 30 days of a month, and making decisions on where you living, how much is it costing you to commute? How much are you making in your job? How are you managing all these unexpected expenses and things that pop up? How are you going to be able to make rent next month. And it’s really illuminating it, Maggie to what you were talking about about all the nuanced, challenging things that contribute to wherever we find ourselves with respect to our financial situations. But all that being said, and if any of you listening, go and do the poverty simulator and learn more about Alice from this, please let me know what you think and what you learn from it. But what I’m wondering for you, Maggie is when you think about folks who are wanting to improve their financial situation, what are some of the things that tend to be go twos for you to look at, that can help to make some immediate differences or some immediate improvements and steps in their world?

Maggie Germano  19:05  

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I always one of the first things I have my clients do is fill out a budget spreadsheet that I send to them where I can get every single detail of their financial picture in one place. So not only for me to understand where they’re coming from, but also for them, because most people who are coming to me have never sat down and plugged in all of their information. So like their income, what their fixed expenses are, what kinds of debts they have and what the interest rates are and what the deadlines are for paying those kinds of things back. It can be really scary to do that. And a lot of people procrastinate. One when that is a task that I’ve assigned to them. But once they’ve done it almost 100% of the time they feel better because it’s like, okay, maybe this wasn’t as scary as I thought it was going to be. Maybe this picture is not as bad as I expected it. Because if it’s kind of just in the back of your mind, and it’s not something that you’re looking at clearly, and that you can actually see the numbers, it’s going to feel a lot scarier, and it gets really, really big and really, really loud in your head. And it just feels a lot worse. So putting it all in one place, not only can make it feel a little less scary, but it also can give you that clarity of where am I actually starting from, because if you don’t know where you’re starting from, it can be really, really difficult or impossible to figure out which direction you need to go towards, or solutions you need to find are different actions that you need to take. So that’s always the starting point. And then from there, we can kind of identify is there wiggle room in terms of cutting costs or cutting back on certain things? A lot of times, there’s not because a lot of people, they’ve already done what they can to cut their expenses as much as possible. And it like you were saying, it often has a lot to do with the income just not being enough, especially for high cost of living areas. So depending on the person, once we have all that information in one place, we have to figure out what are the next steps? So is it cutting down on certain expenses? Is it negotiating your bills down a little bit, if you can, is it putting your student loans into deferment or forbearance for a period of time, that doesn’t always feel good to do things like that. But I think it’s really important to acknowledge what’s going to help you just actually get by because you want to be able to cover the necessities and put food on the table, especially in a year like 2020, where we had an unexpected global pandemic. And nobody really saw this coming or understood how to deal with it. And it’s just so important to make sure you can cover your own necessities and your basics of needs. So taking certain actions that can kind of free up some space in your budget as well. But then we have also talked about what are your potential earning opportunities? Is there space for being able to ask for a raise at work or getting a higher paying job or maybe taking on a second part time job? Obviously, those can be sacrifices that for a lot of people, maybe there is not a lot of room to be able to do things like that. But again, just being able to understand where you’re coming from so we can start exploring some of those solutions.

Lisa Lewis Miller  22:29  

Yeah, I love that. It’s it’s really methodical. Like, let’s start number one with what your overhead expenses are like, what, what is the cost of living your life right now on a month to month basis? And how can we find any places to squeak out just a little bit more possibility? A little bit more wiggle room a little bit more opportunity? But then looking at Okay, now, how do we now that we have established where the floor is? How do we raise the ceiling? How can we get you making more money in your current job? How can we add another side hustle on top of that? How do we find a way to get creative, and I appreciate that, that you’re articulating that it’s not always going to be puppy dogs and rainbows like there are there are sacrifices and trade offs that are a part of wanting to set yourself up with a more secure financial future or wanting to dig out of debt or wanting to accumulate wealth or wanting to put yourself on a pathway towards generating generational wealth that you can passing on to your kids that, that there’s often an end, certainly not always, but a lot of the time, a need to make a trade off, make a sacrifice, you know, be willing to give up some free time be willing to, to make a trade to feel like you’re trading off things that would be nice now for things that would feel really, really good soon, or really, really good later. But I imagine that’s also probably where the where the psychology comes in, you know, where do you find that people are running into the most inner roadblocks in thinking about taking action and doing this work?

Maggie Germano  24:03  

Yeah, that’s a really great question, too. So I think traditionally, the personal finance conversation has been very, very focused on sacrifice and suffering. And so like in order to be good with money, you can’t spend any money on anything that is enjoyable or fun in any way. And I think that that has really put most people off from the conversation of budgeting, or, you know, they think that having a budget means just restriction and suffering. And sometimes that is part of it. Unfortunately, like you said, Not everything can be perfect and exciting. But I don’t believe that it all has to be about restriction and suffering. In fact, I don’t think that that is sustainable. I don’t think it’s realistic. So changing the conversation to be more focused on what is the ultimate goal of this journey that you’re about to go on. Is it just because some guy on the internet said that you shouldn’t have any debt? Is it because your parents told you that, like, you have to own a home in order to be in any way successful. So getting really clear on the why of your journey is really, really, really important. So identifying your own values, and identifying and how those values, connect to money, connect to different financial decisions, and getting really clear on what your goals are. So life goals, financial goals, everything connected to that and in between, understanding what that actually means for you is going to make a really big difference, because then you can be connected to the why you can have that motivation. And it can feel less painful to make shorter term sacrifices in order for those longer term goals and those longer term gains. So if you write if you realize, no, I, one of my dreams is to own a home, because I want to have control over my own living space, I don’t want to have to move, or have someone raise my rent or get a roommate, I don’t want to do these kinds of things anymore, I just want to do whatever I want in my home. If you realize that that is one of your big goals, that is a clear motivator, you can always point to what that might look like for you and understand the different steps you need to take now in order to get there. So it becomes more about that ultimate, and place and that ultimate goal that you’ve chosen that you’ve decided on, that means something a lot to you. And it can make those interim sacrifices a little bit less painful, it might still suck while you’re going through it. But you can acknowledge like, there is an actual reason I’m doing this, I’m not just doing it, because I should be better with money or because I should be saving or whatever it might be. It’s, you’ve decided why you’re doing it. And that makes it much more motivating.

Lisa Lewis Miller  26:59  

I love that. I love that reframe. And it reminds me of a quote from Viktor Frankl who was a Holocaust survivor. And obviously, managing money is a little bit different than surviving the Holocaust, for sure. But I think that there’s something about the quote that has a certain universality to it, which is that and I think I’m gonna botch the exactness. So look, in the shownotes, I’ll put the proper quote from Viktor Frankl in its proper attribution there. But the quote goes something to the effect of pain ceases to be suffering when it finds its meaning, or when it finds a purpose. And I mean, like, what a profound thing to say about the experience of being in internment camps and whatnot. But also, what are kind of beautiful guiding principles to think about across a lot of different areas of life, including finances, because I think you’re absolutely right that, that it’s important to take a look at things that you internally are labeling as a sacrifice, or a struggle around money. Because if that’s the narrative that you have around it, it’s it’s not going to feel good, it’s not going to feel sustainable, it’s not going to be something that you’re going to feel happy that you’re deciding to do over the long term. But tying it to your values, like you so beautifully, just articulated, there can shift the way that we relate to our decisions and to the emotional consequences that we experience. Because it may not feel like suffering, it may feel like like something that has a little bit more noble purpose to it, you know, I almost think about this in the same way that one might relate to going to the gym, right? If you go to the gym, and you run on the treadmill, and you hate it, it is not fun for you, you, but you feel like you have to or you should, and You’re shitting yourself about it, there’s gonna be a lot of suffering that happens with that. But if you tie it to a value or a goal or something that feels positive, hopeful, future focused, exciting, like maybe you want to run a marathon because you want to raise money for a pediatric cancer, all of a sudden, the same feeling the same experience, the same decisions can psychologically appear different, and thus emotionally feel really different. And I mean, maybe you decide that like you hate running, and you don’t want to be on a treadmill at all, and you want to raise money for pediatric cancer in a different way. But it gives you a totally new way to look at and where to access the same kinds of behaviors that will get you to the outcome of taking care of your body taking care of your health, having the opportunity to be able to have the stamina and the conditioning to run something like a marathon.

Maggie Germano  29:41  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I always make the connection between like food and exercise and money because I think that both sides tend to be talked about in a very negative, restrictive, painful suffering way and you just like should do this. You shouldn’t do that. And it’s just There’s so much moral judgment on top of both on all of it. And it really shouldn’t be that way. I mean, it just makes us all be in so much more pain than we need to. And so yeah, I think it’s it’s has to be more about making space for yourself for the things that make you feel good for the things that you love, while still keeping an eye on the long term goals and the ultimate place that you’re trying to reach, whether it is the marathon, or whether it is paying down your debt, or building your wealth, or whatever it might actually look like. It’s, there’s no reason to suffer for suffering sake, and also just doing things because the people around you are doing them. Because that, then you’re just going to feel completely unfulfilled in the actions that you’re taking. And you might end up getting to the goal. And being like, what was I why, why did I even do this, I didn’t even want this, I was just doing it, because I thought that I should. And that’s, that could be a really disappointing place to get to, and then you don’t really know where to go from there. And so trying to be really dialed into the purpose for yourself, I think is, is much more motivating it can make you also feel less bad or guilty when you’re not doing certain things that you see other people doing. I mean, I think about that a lot with career where I had to kind of admit to myself, I’m not really a workaholic, I don’t really like the hustle kind of conversation. I actually like having lots of leisure time and time by myself, but also time with the people that I love and just time doing nothing. I want to do work that is important. And that makes an impact. But I don’t want to be working all the time. And it was hard for me to acknowledge that because I’m so surrounded by this idea that like you have to hustle, you have to work this many hours in order for your work to matter. And I wasn’t it wasn’t making me happy trying to keep up with that. So acknowledging more of what I need related to work has made me feel better about how I’m kind of spending my time where I’m really focusing my efforts. And it’s the same with any kind of goals. Same with your money goals. So not thinking about having like the most expensive different designer clothes or handbags or whatever it might be, because it puts you into this sort of way of being seen by the people around you and and veering into, like really the things that actually matter more to you.

Lisa Lewis Miller  32:37  

Yeah, oh, and that, again, feels like such a universal principle that the more that we each take the time to define success and define the goal on our own terms and peel off the layers of should peel off the layers of what other people are saying or recommending or what sort of like big highfalutin influencers online or on Instagram are recommending, the easier is to make aligned decisions. And the easier it is to feel some peace with being a little bit rebellious and going against the grain and the status quo. And I think it is as true in your financial goals and the way that you manage money and the goals that you want that money to allow you to move towards, as it is in career, you know, when we talk about the four pillars of Gerber filament here, and we talked about doing this inventory work to figure out what how you define your strengths, how you define your personality, how you define your lifestyle needs, and then prioritizing within that to figure out what kind of work fits that it can be a real reckoning because a lot of times that doesn’t look like or feel like what you thought it should do, or what you thought you were supposed to do or what everybody else in your field is doing. But stepping into the empowerment around saying, well, this is actually what I want. And I’m allowed to have what I want, even if it looks different from how it looks for other people, is incredibly empowering and important to keep top of mind.

Maggie Germano  34:01  

I totally agree. And I mean, ultimately, what’s the point of doing anything if you’re not doing what it is that you want more? And I think that I mean, yeah, we get stuck in the hamster wheel of the shoulds. And the comparisons and the keeping up with the Joneses and all of that. And it’s much easier said than done to actually let that go. I very much understand that. But I think about that a lot. Like even just with my business, like if I’m if I’m running my business, but I’m not doing it in a way that actually feels good, then what is the point of doing that if I was going to not feel that great? At work, I might as well work where I have a very steady paycheck and clear benefits and don’t have to work so hard to push forward. So it’s the same with anything like why spend the time and the energy and the sacrifice, working towards something that isn’t what you ultimately actually want and care. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:00  

About, yeah, it’s the wherever you go there you are principle of like you can a lot of people see entrepreneurship as like, it’s going to be the solution like, Oh, I don’t really love my current situation. I don’t love my current Boss, I feel like they’re stepping on my boundaries, I need to go work for myself. But the answer is when you go work for yourself, all of your same habits, and all of your same attitudes and beliefs and behaviors just come with you. So if you’re not creating a more positive experience, and choosing things differently, and entrepreneurship, it’s going to feel the same way. And by the way, there’s totally the option to choose things differently, set different boundaries, teach people how to treat you within corporate so that you may not even need to leave an employment situation to get the kinds of feelings and to be treated the way that you want to be treated. But that’s actually a nice segue into the last thing I wanted to make sure that I talked about with you, which is if we’re talking about financial empowerment for folks talking about salary negotiation has got to be a part of this conversation. Because we know especially like those of us math nerds who want to look at things like compounding returns and compounding interest, like we know how important it is to advocate for yourself, and to ask for as much as you can, when you’re getting a new offer when you’re making a switch. Because when you’re moving to a new employer, all of the the reviews, all the conversations that you’re gonna have about your performance from there on out, are going to be anchored as a percentage of what you’re currently making. And if you can move that floor and that baseline up, even $5,000 $10,000 $20,000, you are setting up your future self to be on a completely new income and wealth creation trajectory. So knowing that you are a trained salary negotiation facilitator, can you share with our listeners, just some of the things that come up when you talk about negotiation? with folks?

Maggie Germano  36:58  

Oh, yes. So I think one of the number one things that comes up, especially with the women that I work with, but in particular, women who work in mission driven fields, is that asking for more is selfish, and that, that it’s not about the money, it’s about the work that you’re doing. And of course, if you’re in mission admission driven field, or you want to be doing a specific type of good work in the world, of course that matters, right? But you’re also still providing labor and skills for the work that you’re doing. So you should be compensated fairly and well, for all those things, in my opinion, especially if you’re doing mission driven work, so that you’re able to support yourself and cover your needs, and not be risking burning out because you can barely get by while you’re doing this work. So that’s a completely separate, huge conversation we could have at some point. But that’s a big part of it is that, that fear of being viewed as selfish, or that fear of it taking away from the work and just being about the money. But I think it’s so important to remember, we’re trading our work and our skills for compensation and for benefits and for vacation days, and all those things. So it’s important to try to start viewing that more as an even playing field of, yes, they’re giving me money, they’re giving me benefits, they’re giving me this job, but I’m giving them my skills and my time and my labor that they also really need in order to maintain their business and their mission and all of that. So I’m very passionate about trying to dispel some of those myths, as well.

Lisa Lewis Miller  38:46  

And it’s, it’s a sustainability question, right? Like, it needs to be financially sustainable for you to go and work at this organization. Right, because they don’t want to have turnover, they don’t want to be hiring somebody new for a role every six months, they want continuity. And if they are not offering you financial compensation in a way that’s going to allow them to have continuity with you or with anybody they deserve to know. But there’s also an emotional sustainability piece of this. Because if you accept something that you are not happy about, and you don’t love it, we all pretend like we’re going to be better liars than we are, we all pretend like we’re not going to be resentful. We’re going to be fine. We’re going to do our gratitude practice, we’re going to get through it. But at the end of the day, you have that little seed in the back of your mind. of Ah, this doesn’t feel good. This isn’t what I wanted to be making it this time. Even if I can make the numbers work on paper. The emotional sustainability piece of it matters too. And, again, that’ll allow for you to have a long, lovely career at a place if you’re asking for what you need and what you want to feel like it’s just as emotionally sustainable as it is financially sustainable.

Maggie Germano  39:55  

I really like that you mentioned that and I like the way that you put that too because I think definitely heard that where people end up feeling really resentful of their employer because of the low amount they’re being paid. I mean, I lived in DC proper for almost 10 years before I moved to the suburbs, and almost everyone I knew was working for nonprofits. And so it was constantly about like, Oh, God, yeah, like this place where I really love their mission, but they barely paid me enough for to survive in the city. And it’s just like, there’s so much resentment, you can’t really respect organizations. When you hear things like that, at least for me, I have a hard time respecting organizations that tout social justice and human rights, but then pay their employees barely enough to live on. But then there’s also the added emotional piece of being frustrated with yourself for not asking for more and for not negotiating. And for wondering, like, could I have gotten a little bit more should I have pushed? And I’ve definitely heard people being embarrassed and frustrated about that, too. And so it’s always even if you don’t enjoy negotiating, and you find it uncomfortable, it’s better to at least try and push and ask for a little bit more so that you have you have that understanding that you at least tried even if the answer ends up being No.

Lisa Lewis Miller  41:19  

I love that, to bet on you. Be willing to be courageous around these compensation conversation so that you don’t have regrets that you carry with you better to go for it and be bold, and find out where the ceiling truly is then not to ask except things and then kick yourself down the road. So what a beautiful, great way to bring this conversation in for a landing. Maggie, thank you so much for being here today. And for people who are listening to this who are thinking, Oh my gosh, I’m loving everything that Maggie has been sharing who have loved your your pearls of wisdom. Where can they hear more about you and money circle?

Maggie Germano  41:56  

Yeah, so my website is MaggieGermano.com tons of information on there related to my coaching services, you can find more information about the Money Circle community, and join that community to get more support from other women. While you’re on your financial journey. You can find my podcast which is also called Money cCrcle. I’m on all the podcasting platforms. But you can also find that on my website for easy access. And then I’m also I have a Forbes column where I’m talking about pretty much mostly the intersection between social justice issues and money but also simpler money conversations once in a while. And then I’m very active on Instagram just @MaggieGermano and on Twitter at the same as well. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:40  

Amazing. Well, Maggie, thank you so much for being here and for reminding people how empowering conversations around money can be. 

Maggie Germano  42:48  

Of course, thanks for having me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:56  

And that’s a wrap. Let us know what you thought about today’s episode. leave us a review on Apple podcasts because not only can your stars and words help us find great guests and topics to feature on future episodes. Your input also helps other people find the resources they need to discover the work that lights them up. And make sure to check out my book Career Clarity Show finally finds the work that fits your values and lifestyle for the link to order it go to GetCareerClarity.com/book. And don’t forget to get your other tools resources and helpful goodies at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. Thanks again for joining us for the Career Clarity Show today. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.

About the Author Lisa Lewis

Lisa is a career change coach helping individuals feeling stuck to find work that fits. She helps people clarify who they are, what they want most, and what a great job for them looks like so they can make their transition as easily as possible. Lisa completed coaching training in Jenny Blake’s Pivot Method, Danielle LaPorte’s Fire Starter Sessions, Kate Swoboda's Courageous Living Coaching Certification, and the World Coaches Institute. In addition to that, she apprenticed with the top career coaches in the country so she can do the best possible work with — and for — you. She's helped more than 500 individuals move into more fulfilling, yummy careers and would be honored to get to serve you next!

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