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Episode 71: How to utilize feedback in a career change with Brodie Riordan

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

Today on the Career Clarity Show we are talking about a topic that is going to be relevant to your life and your career, no matter where your career trajectory takes you. And that is the topic of feedback – how to receive it, how to give it, how to prepare for it, how to think about it, how to emotionally steel yourself to be able to utilize it best. 

This is one of those topics that can absolutely affect the trajectory of your life if you think about it in a healthy growth oriented kind of way. And we’re going to dive into all the different pieces of that.

We have feedback expert, Brodie Riordan, to teach all of us about the different ways that feedback can help change your career and change your life for the better. If you have any areas where you feel like you could grow and your ability to productively utilize the gift of feedback that other people are giving you, today’s episode is absolutely going to be for you.

 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host. And each week, we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome, clarity seekers, I am your host, career change expert, author and the creator of the Career Clarity Show method, Lisa Lewis. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:39  

And today on the podcast, we are talking about a topic that is going to be relevant to your life and your career, no matter where your career trajectory takes you. And that is the topic of feedback, how to receive it, how to give it, how to prepare for it, how to think about it, how to emotionally steel yourself to be able to utilize it best. And this is one of those topics that can absolutely affect the trajectory of your life if you think about it in a healthy growth oriented kind of way. And we’re going to dive into all the different pieces of that on today’s podcast episode.

Lisa Lewis Miller  1:14  

One of the biggest things that comes up for people when they are trying to make a career change is being open to getting the kinds of feedback that’s going to be helpful and useful without putting themselves in a position where they’re getting the kind of feedback that could be limiting or keeping them playing small and keeping them from actually taking some of the courageous career moves and steps that they want to be making. So I have brought in a fabulous feedback expert to teach all of us today about the different ways that feedback can help change your career and change your life for the better. So this episode is for you today if feedback has ever felt like an F word or a four letter word to you. It is for you if you have ever felt nervous about giving feedback, because you’re not sure how to do it in a way that’s going to be empowering and well received by the listener. Today’s episode is for you if you’re feeling nervous about receiving feedback, I know that I as a closet perfectionist or a recovering perfectionist, I definitely have struggled with being able to hear feedback well in the past and not immediately go and only take the bad parts or immediately ignore the bad parts and only listen to the good parts. So if you have any areas where you feel like you could grow and your ability to productively utilize the gift of feedback that other people are giving you, today’s episode is absolutely going to be for you. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  2:40  

Now, let me tell you about today’s guest. Today on the podcast, we are having the delightful Brodie Riordan. She is an industrial psychologist, leadership coach, feedback enthusiast, and author. Her career has included global leadership roles in talent and learning & development with Procter & Gamble, Corporate Executive Board (CEB), and McKinsey & Company, where she led learning and development for Senior Partners. Brodie is on a personal mission to change the way people think about feedback, and encourage them to like it at least 10% more. Her latest book, “Feedback Fundamentals and Evidence-Based Best Practices” distills findings from decades of research into actionable, approachable tools for work and life. In addition to managing her own practice, Brodie also teaches part time in the MBA program at the RH Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland, and in Georgetown University’s HR Masters program. Brodie has published over 2 dozen journal articles, books, and book chapters on coaching, feedback, and leadership. She completed her leadership coach training at Georgetown University and is an ICF certified coach. Brodie has a MA and PhD in Industrial/Organizational (I/O) Psychology from the University of Akron and a BA in psychology from Washington and Lee University.

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:42  

With that, Brodie, welcome to the Career Clarity Show. 

Brodie Riordan  3:46  

Thank you, Lisa. I’m so excited to be here with you today. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  3:50  

I’m excited to have you for many reasons. And one of the reasons being that I love your academic and educational background. I know that many moons ago, our paths crossed because of some of the work that you were doing at Georgetown. And I’d love for you to share with our listeners a little bit about your academic and professional path, about industrial organizational psychology, and all the different twists and turns that have come in terms of your own learning and growth process. 

Brodie Riordan  4:22  

I would love to you know, I absolutely love being an IO psychologist. And so the problem that we might have is, you might have to cut me off because I could talk about it all day long. I’ll go back to let’s see, what year was this? This is almost 20 years ago. So I was in college. I knew I was going to be a psychology major. I love psychology, but I had no idea what I was going to do with it. I I didn’t aspire to be counseling or clinical psychologist. And I had always assumed that I would have some kind of career in business. Luckily for me, Paul Levy, who was an alumnus of Washington know me University where I went, and at the time was leaving the industrial psychology program at the University of Akron, came back to give a talk. And I even remember what it was called, it was called “iO iO. It’s off to work, I go”. And I went to this talk. And it was one of those moments that completely changed my life. 

Brodie Riordan  5:18  

Because when I was in this job talk that he was doing, the light bulb came on for me, I instantly knew that industrial organizational psychology was the career path for me, because it was based on principles of psychology, especially cognitive psychology and social psychology, which I love. But in a business setting, so it had everything that I was looking for. And until that day, I had no idea that that field even existed. And I often wondered to myself, what would have become of my life if I hadn’t gone to his talk. So I’m very grateful that I did. Fast forward a few years, I actually went to the University of Akron, specifically to work with Paul Levy, he was my PhD advisor. And when I first went to graduate school, my intention was only to get a master’s degree and then get out and start working. I the thought of being in school for five more years and getting a PhD, did not appeal to me at all. But once I got there, I just fell completely in love with the field. And I was like, I couldn’t get enough. I just soaked up everything from all of my classes, I did a lot of additional research, I started teaching at the undergraduate level. And I realized that if I left with my Masters, I felt like I was selling myself short. And so I was able to transition into the Ph. D. program. 

Brodie Riordan  6:33  

And I loved every moment of it, it was a great experience, I took every class that I possibly could. And one of the things that I learned when I was in graduate school is just how vast the career options are, when you have either a masters or a PhD. in industrial psychology, you can pursue an academic path with a PhD, you know, and the interesting thing about that is you could work at any kind of like liberal arts or big research school, and you could be in either a psychology department or a Business School, which is pretty unusual. 

Brodie Riordan  7:06  

So that’s one path that you can pursue as academia, then you could go and be an internal IO psychologist within an organization. And even with that path, there are so many different forms that it can take. And I started my career right out of grad school at Procter and Gamble, where I worked in global leadership development. And then the third path you can pursue is consulting. And again, with consulting that can take a number of different forms. I worked at a boutique consulting firm, it was PD ri, which was then acquired by corporate executive board, it was a purely IO psychology consulting firm. I worked at McKinsey and Company, which is a large global consulting firm that specializes in a lot of different disciplines. And so when I was in graduate school, I said, I like all three of these options. I want to get exposure to everything so I can do anything I want with my career. And so at any given time, I was teaching undergraduate psychology, I was a research assistant to my PhD advisor, I worked for a big manufacturing organization as an internal IO psychologists called Timken company. And then I worked getting some consulting experience with two different small consulting firms. 

Brodie Riordan  8:19  

And so, you know, I think the big theme for me was I loved this occupation so much that even doing all this work, and all my schoolwork on top of it never felt that strenuous, because I just enjoyed every moment of it so much. So let me pause there, Lisa, because as I said, I could just keep going forever. And nobody wants to hear a monologue, right? 

Lisa Lewis Miller  8:39  

Well, you know, I think that it’s really inspiring for people to hear stories of others who really felt like they hit their stride. And they stepped into a path that felt very aligned with their interests, very aligned with their strengths, very aligned with the kind of future career vision they imagine creating. So it’s cool to hear your energy and your enthusiasm and your excitement around the work and around the academic path. Because a lot of people who are considering career changes, when they see that there is a possibility that career change might require additional school, they pull the emotional emergency brake of Oh, no, no, I can’t go back to school and go get a PhD. I have, you know, my, I might, I’m not in my 20s anymore. My life is too advanced for that I have too many overhead costs, too many commitments, there’s too much stuff. So hearing about somebody who didn’t intend to get a PhD, and then couldn’t help but get it because of the excitement around my work is a really exciting thing to hear. And one thing I know from us talking before pressing record is that while you saw these awesome Pathways Forward in consulting, in academia, you know, working in graduate programs, things like that, that you also have noticed that there are ways for people to create Those kinds of career paths for themselves that don’t necessarily require the PhD in IO psychology, am I getting it? Right? 

Brodie Riordan  10:07  

Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the things I’ve learned in the last, I don’t know, 10 to 12 years, throughout my different work experiences is that there are many paths to the same destination. So when I first came out of graduate school, you know, I had a pretty clear sense of the kind of work that I was most passionate about. Because with IO psychology, you can, you can basically work on anything that has to do with people in the workplace. But personally, I get really excited about leadership development, helping people have really high performance achieve their full potential, I do a lot of work on coaching motivation, obviously, feedback. And when I was at Procter and Gamble, so I was working in global leadership development there. And I found that my colleagues came from so many different backgrounds. And yet, we were all working together really effectively. 

Brodie Riordan  10:53  

So I had some colleagues who, you know, came straight out of undergrad into entry level HR roles, and then work their way up learning on the job as they went, I had colleagues who had MBAs, some of them who specialized in things like organizational development, or human resources. And we’re doing the same kind of work that I was doing, but from a different path. In some other experiences, I’ve had colleagues who had like a master’s in organizational development. And in my coaching work, I work with people all the time, who don’t have any kind of people background, they might have been engineers, or worked in finance, or they’re scientists, I have a friend who has a PhD in chemistry, who’s now a coach. But they realize that the thing that gets them most excited at work is supporting and helping other people really unlock their performance and have high potential. And so then they pursued additional education to become a professional coach, which doesn’t necessarily require a master’s degree or a PhD, you can do a certification program, which is ultimately how our paths cross when I was doing my coaching certification at Georgetown. And working with a mutual friend of ours.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:09  

Yeah, I love that you’re underlining that there can be so many different pathways that can take you to the same destination to help people feel like there’s not so much pressure on their thinking and on what’s possible. Because to know that you can go and get additional training or certifications without having to get a graduate degree and end up in the same place as fabulous. Knowing that there are a lot of different graduate degrees, that then you can extend and sort of morph into the direction that you want is helpful. And knowing that people can start from the bottom with just an undergrad or you know, starting in an entry level kind of a role. And then can work their way into the role by expressing interest and raising their hand for a specific project. And being willing to go above and beyond. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:53  

I think just is very empowering, just to remember that if you have an interest and you’re willing to put in a little bit of elbow grease, there aren’t a whole lot of doors that won’t open to you. Unless, you know we’re talking about something like being a surgeon, right? In that case, totally. Please go to graduate school. We don’t want anybody who’s straight under out of undergrad doing surgery. 

Brodie Riordan  13:14  

But yes, I yes. I don’t think any of us wants a surgeon who took an indirect route. Hmm, totally. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  13:24  

Well, tell me about how, in the course of your, I don’t know if it was your academic world or in your employment world, you started to nurture this interest in feedback. 

Brodie Riordan  13:36  

When I started working on my master’s thesis at the University of Akron, I remember very clearly sitting in my advisors office is Paul Levy, the same person who I heard get the job talk that convinced me I wanted to be an IO psychologist. And we were, you know, kind of riffing on ideas for what I could focus on in my thesis. And he shared that he has done decades of research on the topic of feedback. And in my mind, I was thinking, Oh, God, that sounds so boring. Why would anyone care enough about feedback to devote their life’s work to it? Well, fast forward a few years and I’m basically his feedback protege and myself have become a feedback zealot. And you know, what really shifted the way that I think about feedback is, well, I mean, it’s, first of all, it started with understanding the science, right? So there, there have been decades of research in psychology in business and education, on the nuances of feedback and why it’s such a valuable source of information, the many forms that it can take, and the nuances that make it more or less effective, and we can talk about some of those do’s so that our listeners have some actionable ideas to walk away with. But when I when I pause and think about what it is about feedback, that I get so excited about a lot of it has to do with reaching our goals, right. 

Brodie Riordan  15:07  

And all of us have goals all the time, whether they are explicit, and we are setting them and writing them down and actively thinking about them. Or if they’re implicit goals, like, I brush my teeth every night before I go to bed, that’s actually an implicit goal, right? It’s something that’s driving your behavior. Well, the only way that we know where we are in space and time relative to our goals is because of feedback. Feedback tells us the distance between where we are and where we want to be. And you can relate that to pretty much anything in your life. Right? If you’re thinking about a bold career aspiration, that you have feedback that’s either self generated, that comes from other people that comes from your environment, will tell you how big is the gap between where you are right now and where you want to be? And what are some of the things that you need to do in order to close that gap an inch closer and closer to your goal to your career aspirations. You can think about this. You know, this is a terrible example. But I’ll use it anyway. But one that always comes to mind for me, that people don’t often think about as feedback is stepping on the scale, right? 

Brodie Riordan  16:12  

If your goal is to weigh 150 pounds, you step on the scale, and you weigh 157, that’s giving you feedback that you’re seven pounds away from your goal, and you need to make some changes to your behavior in order to meet that goal. And so when you really step back and think about all of the different sources of feedback in our lives, we are swimming in a sea of feedback all day, every day, right? If you feel cold, you put on a jacket, that was feedback, right? your body and your own inner monologue generate feedback all day long. But one of the things I’ve noticed when I talk to other people about feedback is that they tend to over index on the very difficult situations that are less frequent, but that leave a lasting impression, right. So you had a horrible feedback exchange with your boss, you had a performance review, 12 years ago, that like hurt you down to your core, and you’ve never been able to let go of it. And because we over index on these negative experiences, it actually creates an attitude toward feedback that can get in the way of us really being open to feedback and maximizing the value from it. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  17:18  

I love that you’re underlining that, because I think that when people are considering a career shift of some sort, be it a, an evolution, where you’re just moving into something that is close to what you’ve been doing, versus a revolution where you’re moving into something that is wild and big and scary and different. The fact that we’re swimming in a sea of feedback can sometimes be easy to miss. Because we really think of the feedback as those a big watershed emotionally distressing moments, like the annual review, or like when the person that you wanted to date says no, I don’t want to go out with you, or whatever those big painful moments are. And so I’d love to segue into talking about navigating this sort of in between this where you’ve decided you don’t want to keep doing what you’re doing. And you are moving towards a different and better world. But you’re in that sort of uncomfortable Limbo, liminal state of change. Where no if we use the the metaphor of a caterpillar and a butterfly, like you’re not in the caterpillar state anymore, but you haven’t become the butterfly, you’re in the cocoon, you are a pile of goo, you are reorganizing your life and figuring your things out. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  18:42  

So if we take this, this openness and this approach to feedback, and we think about it spread across the career transition journey, you know, here at Career Clarity Show, we use a three phase model to talk about the career change, evolution. Phase One is where you are evaluating who you are, what you want, what your highest priority needs are, to come up with some smart and strategic hypotheses for what might fit you. Phase Two is testing and validating if your ideas and hopes actually play out in reality the way that you want. And phase three is going all into the job search process to actually complete your transition, make it happen, get a fabulous offer letter and sign on the dotted line. So if we break this down, let’s start with phase one. And the interplay with feedback there around how you can be using both the sea of feedback that you’re swimming in and some of those more punctuating moments to help you to craft and then really put your finger on an idea or a couple ideas of what you might really enjoy doing next. 

Brodie Riordan  19:55  

Absolutely. I think that feedback can be incredible. source of self awareness and discovery in this phase, the first place that I would recommend people begin is sort of checking in on generally how they feel about feedback, right? What is your feedback orientation? Do you value feedback? When people give you feedback? Do you accept it? Do you use it? Do you actively seek it out. And then as you go forward, and you’re self generating feedback, or you’re getting feedback from other people, you’ll have a little bit better baseline of self awareness to understand generally, how do you feel about feedback. 

Brodie Riordan  20:32  

So it’s a good thing to be aware of. The next place that I would look is, you know, generating some feedback for yourself about what you do and don’t want in whatever the next phase of your career is, right. So you know, if you do some noticing, like, if you think about your current job, and certain situations just make you feel kind of icky inside or, you know, really suck the life out of you and drain your energy. But other parts of that work really excite you, and bring you to life and you get in the zone. By really noticing how you’re feeling and paying attention to what different parts of your work or work environment due to you, you’re actually self generating feedback there. Right? So if you’re like, I noticed that when I talk to this coworker, I feel really icky on the inside. Okay, well, let’s figure out how to not work with people like that, in this next phase of your career, or find that when I have a day, and I can just go really deep on data analytics for eight hours, and it brings me to life and Time flies, that’s really important feedback for yourself to about the nature of the work that you enjoy. So self generating a little bit. Feedback can also be really valuable. 

Brodie Riordan  21:46  

Once you start looking at possibilities for your career, right. And this comes back to the framework that I mentioned earlier, where you’re looking at your current state and your desired state or your goal, right? And understanding what is the distance or the gap between those two things. So if you’re sort of playing with the idea of a few different career options, do a little bit of work to say, Okay, well, here’s where I am, what is the gap or the distance between option one, option two, option three, option four, and generate some feedback for yourself there? So you really understand, you know, what is it that this transformation or change would look like and entail for you. And then the last thing I would mentioned for phase one, a really finding out what it is that you want next is asking other people that you trust? You know, I think one thing that can be hard about constantly self generating feedback, and only doing the work ourselves is we have a biased perspective, right? We are with ourselves all day long. We have our own assumptions and stories that we tell ourselves. And so I would recommend finding a few people who you really trust and asking them for some feedback. You know, Lisa, when we work together on things, where do you see me really shine? Where have you seen me struggle the most. And this could be you know, colleagues who you really trust people from past work experiences, people who went to school with family friends, the key is to find someone who’s going to be truly honest, and a truth teller to you to help you really think about where you’re being your best self and where you’re struggling. And one of the most important things that you can do when you’re asking other people for feedback is to be as specific as possible. 

Brodie Riordan  23:20  

So the more specific you are, the easier it is for the other person to answer the question. And even more so when you’re asking for rebooking questions. So Lisa, I’m thinking about what to do next with my life based on what you’ve seen, in our work together in the past, what do you think I should think about for the future? Or what do you think would bring out the best in me in the years to come? Brody, I love that. And I imagine people who are listening to this, who have been through our Career Clarity Show process, especially if they’ve already done the unit on strength, are probably nodding and smiling and recognizing that that this way of getting a lot of different perspectives, and a lot of different points of feedback is built into the way that we think about making a career change. And one of the things that I love that you’re highlighting here is that diversity of perspective is an important thing to seek out that you don’t want to exclusively ask other people for their feedback. And you don’t want to exclusively go and do external assessments or go take quizzes on what might be possible.

Lisa Lewis Miller  24:27  

You don’t want to exclusively be having this introspection happening just in the depths of your own heart and soul and mind that it’s really helpful to take these different points and look at them, you know, laid out next to one another to make sure that you’re seeing resonance, continuity and consistency. And that if you’re noticing some funky outliers, you can start to think about, you know, hmm, is the reason why nobody in my circle saw me as being analytical because I actually don’t have as much Strengthen gifting there as I thought, or is it because I just haven’t been choosing opportunities and putting myself in a position where they could see this part of me, but I know that it’s part of my inner DNA and something that I want to be exploring and extending into whatever my next courageous career decision might be. 

Brodie Riordan  25:17  

Absolutely, there can be meaning in the things that people don’t say, as well as meaning and the things that people do say. And, you know, one word of advice that I would offer to your listeners is, when you’re getting feedback like that, if it’s something that you don’t agree with, it surprises you. Remember that you ultimately get to decide what you do with that feedback. And you know, especially if feedback feels critical, or it’s surprising, or it’s inconsistent with your own self perceptions, it’s very normal to feel a little bit defensive when you first get that feedback. And so something else I would recommend to your to your listeners is to remember that emotions work faster than cognition. And to really get the value out of feedback, you need to be able to think rationally about it. So if someone gives you feedback that triggers you in some way, either because it’s surprising or inconsistent with your own self beliefs, it’s okay to let that emotional reaction happen, right? But be mindful of what you do with it, you know, let the emotional reaction pass. This is why we say like, count to 10, when you’re angry, because you need time for rational thought to catch up with emotion. And so you can always say, you know, Lisa, thank you so much for that feedback. I have a lot of thinking to do. 

Brodie Riordan  26:29  

You know, let me step away and think about this, especially in combination with some of the other feedback I’ve gotten. And I’ll come back to you and see if I have questions. You do not have to respond or commit to doing something with that feedback right away, especially if you’re asking friends and family, for feedback about your own career, right, you do not have any kind of commitment to them to take and put to use their feedback, you can decide what you want to do with it. And I would encourage people to try and see the value take that holistic perspective say, Well, this is interesting. No one’s ever said this to me before. I’m curious about what it is that they’re saying that’s different, or you know, what questions this raises for me. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  27:07  

Absolutely. And the other funny thing that happens with people who are seeking out these feedback points is oftentimes, you hear wildly consistent feedback, you talk to your manager, you talk to your mom, you talk to your professor from undergrad, and they keep saying the same things. And a lot of times people are really disappointed by that. of Oh, man, I was hoping somebody would give me that one insight about who I am. that’s fundamentally different that I’ve never heard before, it really changes my self awareness or myself paradigm. And I didn’t get that. And I feel let down by that. And I think that there’s something in there of if you’re getting really consistent feedback, and you’re seeing the same themes show up across different categories of who you are, or what you’re interested in. That kind of validation can also be just as useful and just as helpful as sort of the outlier or the unusual, or the unexpected data points.

Brodie Riordan  28:10  

Absolutely. You know, I think your point about like, I’m not getting that nugget of new information that I’ve never heard before, is really interesting. And especially if you’re on a path of growth and self exploration, it can be frustrating to just hear things that you’ve already heard over and over again, right. And so if your listeners find themselves in that boat, I would recommend a few things. One, think about the types of questions that you’re asking and who you’re asking, right? Like, if you really want to be exhaustive and trying to get some new perspective or diverse perspective, ask a different type of question, ask it to someone who you wouldn’t typically talk to, or who has seen you in a very different capacity to try and get some new data points. But then if you just keep getting the same feedback over and over again, at some point, you might say, Okay, well, I’m pretty consistent across these situations. What do I want to do with this? How do I want to work with it? Am I am I comfortable with the feedback that I’m getting? Does this highlight somewhere that I want to make changes in my behavior? Do I want to be bolder in some ways. 

Brodie Riordan  29:11  

And you know, if this reminds, this is a really weird metaphor, but like, I was talking to someone about doing taxes the other day, and he’s a CPA, and he was saying that so many people are always hunting for that tax break that they feel like it’s out there, and they just can’t find it. Well, sometimes it doesn’t exist, right. And the same can be true of feedback. If you’re always hunting for this new nugget of information. If you’re really being thorough and exhaustive, you might get to a point where you’re just not going to find it. And maybe that suggests you want to try some things differently in your work and in your behavior. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  29:45  

Yeah, I think that’s a really important point to underline. Now, let’s transition into talking about the phase two part of the career journey where you’ve come up with a couple hypotheses. You know, using the feedback process that you were describing a minute ago, you’ve started to get a sense The gap between this future idea that feels inspiring, motivating, exciting, and where you currently are in terms of your skills, knowledge, etc. In phase two, it’s the time to actually test to try things out to see what it would look like and feel like to close that gap, to see if it’s a gap that you even want to close. And something that feels energizing and exciting, feels as energizing and exciting in the doing as it seemed like it would in the dream and in the hypothesis. So this part of the journey seems like it is a ripe with opportunities to be getting feedback, seeking out feedback. So tell me what you see when you think about that? 

Brodie Riordan  30:40  

Well, when I think about this phase, Lisa, it actually reminds me of experience I had when I was about seven or eight years old, I was really into ice hockey and watching it on television. And I told my mom, I wanted to be an NHL player. And luckily for my mom, she’s great truth teller. And she told me this goal might be a little hard for me to attain because I didn’t know how to escape, and I didn’t play hockey. And so it gave me a really good Reality Check about one of my career aspirations. And so, you know, to continue what we were talking about at the end of phase one, this is where your truth tellers, and people who can be really honest with you can be helpful. You know, you mentioned earlier that you want to find people who will give you feedback that’s useful, but that doesn’t stifle you, right. You don’t need people to be giving you feedback on your aspirations and your hopes that that shut you down and keep you in a box. However, you also don’t want feedback from people who are just going to tell you what you want to hear, even if it’s not really realistic, right. So this is where asking people for feedback on the viability of a career path. 

Brodie Riordan  31:44  

And I would say pick people who have some degree of expertise, right, and they could either be an expert on you, or an expert on that career path. So talking to people who have already pursued that path to understand what it really entails, what the day to day is like, getting some feedback from them on what their experience is like, and then creating some feedback for yourself based on what you’re hearing from them. And then asking people who are experts on you who really know, you know, your personality, your preferences, your behavior, what brings out the best in you what shuts you down or stifles you and asking them for feedback on what you’re thinking about in these new career options. And this is another place where that openness to feedback is so important, right? If people will tell you what you don’t want to hear, it’s actually very courageous of them. I like to remind people that, you know, difficult feedback is often unpleasant to give, and people would not give it to you as they didn’t care about you, because they’re going out on a limb by giving you the heartbeat back. And so if you’re talking to someone about some career options that you’re considering, and they give you feedback, that’s a little bit discouraging, instead of getting defensive about it, be grateful that they’re willing to be honest and truthful with you. And also remember that it’s up to you whether or not you want to use that feedback.

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:02  

And love that. And I think that there’s also an important way to think about the difficult feedback and operationalizing it when it comes to creating your own feedback loop of actually trying a piece of what you might want to do. So for example, I had a client who was an epidemiologist, and she wanted to get out of the world of epidemiology. And she was looking at what some of the different pads were that she could move into. And one of the pads that was sort of interesting on paper was quality assurance. And we said, okay, knowing what quality assurance is sort of at a cerebral level, what would it actually feel like in the doing day to day to move into that kind of work. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  33:43  

And so we structured a little test drive a little experiment, for her to do some research into an element of quality assurance that overlapped with her existing life into just write a write a paper about how you’d operationalize this, just to see what that was like. And she came to our next coaching session. And she said, I didn’t do it, I was dreading it reading about it was so boring. And I said, you know, the fact that those were the things that were coming up for you, is super clarifying and incredibly helpful, even if it’s also painful and stressful and frustrating to be admitting. 

Brodie Riordan  34:23  

Absolutely. I love that example, Lisa. And to me, it really is this test and learn approach and test and learn is based on feedback, right? You were trying one thing, you see what happens. You take some learnings away from it, and then maybe you try something different. And feedback is what’s telling you how that testing is going. And it’s enabling the learning process. What I love about the example that you shared is that it would have been it could have been really easy to miss that feedback, right? The avoidance, the discomfort, the lack of interest. You know, sometimes we feel these things and we don’t want to hear it. As feedback, right, we say, Oh, I’m being a procrastinator, I need to get around to this, I need to force myself to do this. But this is where tuning into yourself and really paying attention to how you’re thinking and feeling. This is your body and your mind trying to tell you things about what you do and do not want, right. And so really tuning into that self generated feedback will give you a lot of valuable data, as you’re considering some of these other options. And the reverse can be true as well, right? If you do something, and it just fills you with life, and it’s something that you would do for free, and maybe you could make a career out of it, which will be amazing, like, Listen to the energy and the reactions that you’re having. Don’t just try and quiet that voice. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:44  

Brodie, that’s such an important point that you’re making, because so many people, when they are in the midst of making a transition, have this incredibly hard on themselves voice that pops up as a part of this. It’s a voice of perhaps perfectionistic pastures that you need to do everything right. And there’s no space for you to be sort of a messy beginner in trying to do something new. Or it’s the voice of not wanting to shake the boat, and so not wanting to do anything that’s going to disrupt your current life. And so then there’s this pull away from potential ideas. And it can sometimes be really difficult to parse out the difference between when am I noticing procrastination or self sabotage or some of these other things coming up? Because they’re a product of an unhelpful inner monologue that’s going on that I can shift and tweak that will actually lead me towards things that feel good and give me life and fill me up? versus when are these internal monologues actually really helpful feedback points that I should be listening to? Because the path forward isn’t one that’s going to be a good fit for me? How do you help people navigate, really peeling apart the difference between when that inner critical voice is something that is being helpful versus something that is sabotaging you?

Brodie Riordan  37:03  

Yeah, that that is a very tough distinction. And, you know, at the heart of it is really starting to understand yourself and your patterns and becoming more and more self aware. But I think this is another place where outside feedback can be very helpful, right? If you are getting feedback from other people, or even like from your environment, and from work that you’re doing, that tells you you’re really good at this thing, and you have a lot of potential and there could be something here, but then inside, you’re scared, you’re shying away from it, you’re having some anxiety, maybe it’s not that career option that scares you, maybe it’s the fear of putting yourself out there, or the fear of letting go of something else, or of making a change and embracing transformation. And the hard thing about this is you really have to do the work to discern it for yourself. But you know, when you’re starting to feel those feelings take a time to sit down and kind of pull them apart a little bit like, Okay, what is driving this feeling for me? How do I feel about this job? 

Brodie Riordan  38:03  

Well, this this career prospect makes me super excited. But I also noticed that when I think about it, I feel scared, nervous and anxious. Okay, well, what’s driving the nervousness and the anxiety? Maybe it’s unanswered questions about the financial viability of that career path, maybe its concerns about what people at your current job will think of you if you make a change. So trying to sort out what is the root cause of the different emotions that you’re experiencing can be really helpful. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  38:36  

And one of the beautiful things about the process that you just described there is that when you allow yourself to keep asking that, you know, well, why is this happening? Where is that coming from? What’s driving that? asking those clarifying and focusing questions can oftentimes bring you to a core unanswered question. That becomes a fear that then controls your behavior. That’s actually a very answerable question. Right. If the question is, gosh, I don’t know if this road could be financially viable for me. That’s a question that you can go do research on, you can go talk to people about that you can come up with some different business models to address that question opens up a lot more freedom than just allowing for the fear to then trigger the behavior or the inner monologue that then makes you feel like you’re shrinking or makes you feel like you can’t take any steps forward or you’re stuck in analysis paralysis, actually allows you to do I feel really wrapped up in my thought there. 

Brodie Riordan  39:41  

Well, you know, your point about like, the question coming up is really important, because that question, the answers to that question, are part of what’s in the gap between where you are now and where you want to be right and if you look at it like you’re chipping away, trying to slowly inch a little bit closer from your current state to where you want to be Getting all of that stuff out on the table, the fears that you have the questions that you have the feedback that is telling you how big or how small this gap is, is only going to help you get closer and closer to clarity as you’re exploring different options. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  40:16  

Lovely. Well, to take that and extend it. Let’s imagine that somebody has gone through phase two. And they have been noticing these questions coming up. They’ve been slowly but surely chipping away, answering the questions, addressing the fears, getting more certainty, getting more competence, getting more excitement around making the transition. And they arrive on the doorstep of phase three of saying, Okay, I have an idea I’m really excited about I feel a certain sense of security and safety and making this transition because I have done the vetting process. I’ve answered those questions, and I’m ready to execute and make my job change happen. There is a heck of a lot of feedback built into the job search and job acquisition process, and probably especially so for career changers who are trying to reposition and rebrand themselves to be seen and valued in a totally new light.

Brodie Riordan  41:10  

Absolutely. And I think that phase three is where some more formal feedback comes into play, that can be really helpful. You know, as you are thinking about career options, there are so many people out there who will be ready, willing and able to give you feedback, right? So you can get people to look at your resume, especially if you’re trying to make a change, like how do you know that your resume is telling the story that you want to tell? I had a conversation with a friend a few weeks ago who is retiring from the military and moving into a private sector role. And he kept getting feedback from recruiters that they didn’t see the experiences that he had had. And he wanted to move into like a talent or people kind of role. The challenge was, the military uses very different language than private sector organizations. And so for him, he got feedback that he needed to basically rebrand his resume in a way that was using common language and terminology. 

Brodie Riordan  42:06  

That was what people recruiting for these private sector jobs. So they’re looking for not necessarily the same language that he would have used in a military setting. And so getting that kind of feedback to make sure that you’re telling your story in a way that helps you move toward your career goals and present you in the way that you want to be presented. Also, if you’re talking to executive recruiters, if you’re talking to people within the organizations where you might want to work, you can do informational interviews with people who are in the same field, talk a little bit about your background, your story, how you’re trying to move from point A to point B and ask people in those settings for feedback to I know sometimes it can be challenging to get really candid feedback from recruiters. And so you know, some of these places might be a hit or miss. But this is another place where the way you frame the ask is so important. So if you want to get useful, constructive feedback from other people, ask very specific questions, make it as easy as possible for other people to answer. And you’re basically opening the door for them to walk through and give you feedback. The last thing that you want to do is ask for blanket statements like, Lisa, can you give me feedback on my resume? Well, that’s not very helpful, because I haven’t told you what I’m trying to accomplish what I’m looking for where I’m having difficulty on my resume. I may say, Lisa, I have been an industrial psychologist, and I want to become a professional landscaper, I’m having a really hard time telling my story. Here’s some places where I’ve tried to emphasize the experience that I have. What do you think would help me punch up my story to make me viable to be a landscaper, when you look at my resume to be much more specific, also making it forward looking? What are some things that I can do differently, to help make me more competitive for what it is that I’m trying to pursue? 

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:50  

I love that. Because what you get back from that, and that gift of feedback will be either actual actions that you need to take because there are tangible gaps, right, a knowledge gap and experience gap, a skill gap, whatever gap or the feedback that actually it’s just a positioning issue. Yeah, got all the puzzle pieces, you’ve got all the experiences that somebody needs. But it’s purely how you share those and how you tell your story, that we’ll be able to shift the narrative around who you are as a candidate to make it really clear why you’re actually a wonderful fit for the sorts of roles that you’d love to throw your hat in the ring for right now. 

Brodie Riordan  44:24  

Absolutely. And here, I would just reiterate to your listeners that this is another place where you’re sort of like self management is so important, right? So as I mentioned earlier, when someone gives you feedback that might feel a little bit critical or might not necessarily be what you want to hear, they are going out on a limb by giving you that feedback, right? And they’re really being generous and doing that and you might have that initial, strong emotional reaction. You might feel a little bit defensive. But what you want to do is pause, don’t react, let that emotion run its course. express gratitude for the feedback. If they Give it to you really poorly and you don’t understand it and ask clarifying questions to try and draw out what they’re really trying to tell you, right. So assume positive intent, and do what you can to make the most of the feedback experience, even if the other person is struggling a little bit to give you truly useful and constructive feedback.

Lisa Lewis Miller  45:18  

Brodie, that’s so good. And another element of that emotional management self management piece is in base three, learning and navigating the internal feedback loop that you have around what happens when you see a job listing pop up, because the amount of anxiety and cold sweats that that causes that people have, oh my gosh, I just saw a role available, I need to apply online immediately, I don’t want to get passed over, I don’t want to miss out, I need to submit my resume. Right now, instead of taking the time to say tailor it for a couple days or the time to reach out to somebody who works at that organization or in the industry to get some insider feedback on how you could reposition yourself. There’s so much anxiety and stress that comes up in the job search process, that oftentimes the anxiety is in the driver’s seat of our job search rather than our cooler, sort of more subdued, logical, rational selves that can say, okay, a job isn’t posted. There are some steps that I can take to set myself up for better success in throwing my hat in the ring for that then just immediately impulsively submitting an application within the first five hours of it being open. 

Brodie Riordan  46:37  

Yes, absolutely. And you know, this is where simply pausing and noticing can be so powerful. I mean, I talked about this with my coaching clients. And it seems so simple to just pause, or to just notice what’s happening. But it’s actually really powerful to put the brakes on to let rational thought catch up with emotion. And also to really understand what it is that’s going on with you right now. Why do you feel that sense of urgency to be impulsive and submit an application when in your heart and in your mind, you probably know that waiting and tailoring and doing the work is going to make you a more competitive candidate. So if you know if this is something that people are struggling with, as they’re working on their search, practice that pause, even if it’s just 30 seconds, 30 seconds is not going to make or break whether or not you get this job, it will if you don’t apply within 30 seconds, I mean, but 30 seconds could be the difference maker to get you to stop and think in a more level headed way about the approach that you’re taking. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  47:39  

So true, so true. And I tell people that if a job is only posted for two days, and because you waited two days to go reach out to somebody at the organization to get some information, some feedback that’s no longer available to apply for a job was never actually available to you in the first place. Right. If a student closes that quickly, people don’t typically close job postings unless they’re in a position where they’ve put out an offer and it’s been accepted. Or they were just doing an internal promotion or an internal transition. And they had to post it for a legal purpose, you know, or a company policy purpose. So it can be so easy to spin into the story’s about what it meant, what it meant that you missed it, that there will never be an opportunity like that comes up ever again. But recognizing that when organizations are legitimately doing a job search for external candidates, they build in time in terms of when the listing is posted, and when it’s taken down. Such that they have some flexibility and wiggle room and such that you have the time to put together a really strategic and thoughtful, you know, candidacy for them. 

Brodie Riordan  48:49  

Time is on your side, right and that example. And also anytime you’re dealing with feedback, always recognizing that you’re going to have these strong emotional reactions because it feels personal, right? You’re feeling criticized or you’re feeling judged, or you’re feeling exposed. But time will only make those feelings diminished and allow your rational thought, a chance to catch up. So take your time when you see those job postings. Take your time when people are giving you feedback. You can you know, you don’t want to wait days or weeks. But you can take the time to think mindfully about things and choose how you want to respond instead of react. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  49:27  

Absolutely. And if you’re listening to this and wanting to get another perspective on how to use that time effectively and what some, some strong strategies are four ways to put forward a really compelling candidacy. Go back and check out the episode of the Career Clarity Show where we have Mac Pritchard on he gives some fabulous advice on this and we’ll link to it in the show notes. It’ll all be available at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast so you can look back through all sorts of resources to help you feel really equipped and powerful here. But speaking of things that are going to go in the show notes as resources for our listeners, Brodie, this has been amazing. And I can only imagine there are people listening who are thinking, I want to get her book,

Lisa Lewis Miller  50:08  

I want to find out about her coaching work, I need to know more about what is going on in her world. And so can you share a little bit for listeners about where they can find out more about the work you do? And the impact you’re making? 

Brodie Riordan  50:20  

Absolutely, I would be delighted and you know, I, I can talk all day about feedback if people want to learn more. So my book Feedback Fundamentals and Evidence-Based Best Practices is available in major bookstores on Amazon. I live in Washington, DC, so it’s at our local bookstore, politics and prose here. And I would just encourage people to reach out least that I can give you my email. And if you want to put it in the notes on your podcast, that’s probably the best way to reach out. It my coaching work, I like to work with people who are at a place where they want to, you know, crank their work up another notch. Like they feel like they have a blockage between what they’re capable of, and what they’re currently doing, to feedback, coaching, and then other general gnarly people, challenges are the things that get me really excited in my work. And if that’s something that your listeners are interested in talking more about, I would be delighted to connect. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  51:16  

Wonderful. Well, Brody, thank you so much for coming on the Career Clarity Show today and sharing such practical brilliance with folks. 

Brodie Riordan  51:25  

Thank you, Lisa. It’s been a real pleasure to be here. I appreciate it. And your listeners are in such great hands with you. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  51:33  

Brodie, I appreciate that feedback. And if you as the listener agree I’d love to hear your feedback, whether it’s as a direct email to me at Lisa@GetCareerClarity.com or as a review on Apple podcasts. We are constantly striving to bring top of the line thought leaders and experts just like Brody onto the show, to share all of their advice, their wisdom, their studies, about how to have a happier, healthier, more meaningful relationship to your work. And to find the work that’s really going to light you up and make you feel like you have arrived in the kind of thing that fits who you are, fits your heart fits your soul. So any feedback you can give us about what you need, what you would benefit from what you’ve been liking that we’ve been doing so far is incredibly appreciated. And make sure to go get your tools, goodies, links, etc from today’s episode of the podcast at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast and we’ll have the exact link to that in the show notes for today. And if you don’t already have your hands on it, go grab a copy of the Career Clarity Show book too. You can get that at GetCareer Clarity.com/book or anywhere that books are sold. And remember that if you don’t love your work, we should definitely talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.

About the Author Lisa Lewis

Lisa is a career change coach helping individuals feeling stuck to find work that fits. She helps people clarify who they are, what they want most, and what a great job for them looks like so they can make their transition as easily as possible. Lisa completed coaching training in Jenny Blake’s Pivot Method, Danielle LaPorte’s Fire Starter Sessions, Kate Swoboda's Courageous Living Coaching Certification, and the World Coaches Institute. In addition to that, she apprenticed with the top career coaches in the country so she can do the best possible work with — and for — you. She's helped more than 500 individuals move into more fulfilling, yummy careers and would be honored to get to serve you next!

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