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Episode 70: How to make a career change using your network with Mo Chanmugham

Welcome to The Career Clarity Show, where we help you find a lucrative, soulful, and joyful career path for you!

Today on the Career Clarity Show, we are talking about winding, twisting career stories, and how to take yourself from a path that might look good on the outside and not feel so great on the inside, to something that feels fulfilling, juicy, life giving and fabulous inside and out. 

This week’s episode is for you if you have been thinking about making a career change of your own, but you’re on the fence and wanting to hear an inspiring story. And it’s especially for you if you have been thinking about or are already in a high paying career. Something like law, medicine, working in finance, a place where it can feel really easy to have golden handcuffs on. 

Because Mo Chanmugham, the former entertainment lawyer turned executive career coach and founder of MGC coaching, is going to give you a really interesting and inspiring view into what life after some of those careers can look like that can still feel lucrative and satisfying for the soul.

 

Want to learn more about our strategic framework for successful career change? Download The Roadmap to Career Fulfillment ebook right here!

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Transcript:

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:04  

Welcome to the Career Clarity Show. If you want to create a career path you’ll love, you’re in the right place. I’m Lisa Lewis Miller, career change coach, published author and your host, and each week we’ll bring you personal transformation stories, advice and insights from experts about how you can find a more fulfilling, soulful and joyful career. Hello, and welcome, clarity seekers. I’m your host, career change expert and the creator of the Career Clarity method, and author Lisa Lewis Miller. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  0:39  

And today on the podcast, we are talking about winding, twisting career stories, and how to take yourself from a path that might look good on the outside and not feel so great on the inside, to something that feels fulfilling, juicy, life giving and fabulous inside and out. Today’s episode is for you. If you have been thinking about making a career change of your own, but you’re on the fence and wanting to hear an inspiring story. And it’s especially for you if you have been thinking about or are already in a high paying career. Something like law, medicine, working in finance, a place where it can feel really easy to have golden handcuffs on. Because today’s guest is going to give you a really interesting and inspiring view into what life after some of those careers can look like that can still feel lucrative and satisfying for the soul. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  1:30  

Today’s podcast guest is Mo Chanmugham, the former entertainment lawyer turned executive career coach and founder of MGC coaching, where he helps ambitious professionals create more fulfilling careers. Like many of his clients, Mo had chased professional success having worked in marketing and media for companies like Reebok and Def Jam. But despite landing these roles, he never felt fulfilled by the day to day work. And I can only imagine so many people who are listening are nodding their heads and feeling the same way. This prompted him to go on his own personal development journey, where he learned what really mattered to him and also what had been preventing him from finding professional fulfillment. Today, he helps his clients figure out what they want to do next by guiding them with coaching and strategies that help get them unstuck and finding more fulfilling careers. Mo, welcome to the Career Clarity Show.

Mo Chanmugham  2:21  

Hey, thank you, Lisa. So happy to be here.

Lisa Lewis Miller  2:24  

I’m excited to have you today. Because I know just a little bit about your background and your story. And I know that leaving a lucrative, very impressive looking kind of field to move into something that feels more fulfilling can be a truly terrifying venture. And I know that people who go into fields like law, like you had been in oftentimes are thinking about how to really optimize their careers and their lives for safety, security, financial stability. And the idea of possibly thinking about going off that path to pursue something that feels even better for their souls is a really scary thing to give yourself permission to think about. So I’m wondering if for our conversation today, we can start at the very beginning of what made you want to go into law in the first place. We’ll work through the different pieces in your own career discernment journey to where you are today. 

Mo Chanmugham  3:22  

Sure, sure. Yeah, that’s definitely helpful way to talk through this whole process. So where should I start? So I’ll start a little bit before law, because that’s kind of part of the story as well. I like to say I’ve had three dream jobs. And the first job was coming out of college, I went to work for Reebok in their marketing department, their headquarters were in Massachusetts. I grew up in Massachusetts. I went to Boston University, and I was super excited about landing this great job coming out of college. My goal was to work in sports marketing, so I couldn’t have been happier with what I was doing. So it really sort of worked out well for me, and I gotta say, working at Reebok kind of felt like working at a professional summer camp. We had like the the basketball court indoors where we play at lunch, and we had soccer fields and softball fields and all kinds of stuff. And athletes come in through the the building all the time. 

Mo Chanmugham  4:14  

So it’s a really great job in the beginning. And it was exactly what I wanted to do. But I would say about a year and a half into it. I started getting that feeling like this, wasn’t it, you know, it just wasn’t finding it fulfilling. And again, this sort of theme of looking for fulfillment has like been with me throughout my career. At the end of the day, I was working on Reeboks website doing online marketing for them. And I just remember having the thought about a year and a half in just that just like I don’t care about selling more sneakers online. You know, that’s just not what, what I was put on here to do. And and I didn’t find it exciting and any more. So in the beginning I did. It was great. It was exciting. I was happy to learn about the company and the industry and what we were working on But eventually, I got to a point where it just wasn’t interesting me anymore. And I, and I started it. And it was really the first time I started thinking about it from that standpoint of I want a more fulfilling career. 

Mo Chanmugham  5:13  

Before that I was, you know, still young in my 20s really sort of, had this idea that I wanted to work in a fun career. So fun was really like the theme I was following me. And you’ll see that I kind of made made fun. The theme for my next two, two more jobs. where, you know, I wanted something that was going to enjoy doing everyday. So actually, you know, I didn’t care about the money and a lot of friends who graduated college and wanting to finance or consulting. And sure they were making a lot more money than me. But I knew I was I was the only one going to you know, work in sneakers playing basketball with Allen Iverson, right, everyone else was working at a bank somewhere. So so I was okay with what I was doing. I was happy with the with the life choices, and career choices I was making at the time. And then, but when I was kind of thinking about what do I really want to do next, law kind of came up as a great sort of combination of both a fulfilling career and one I can make some money and, and one that felt like, you know, he could be interested in really interesting work. And so really, very early on, I started thinking about law as a as a potential option. But the story doesn’t jump straight to law school. So I end up moving to LA, which is kind of a fun, something kind of crazy I did in my 20s, where I went to visit a friend for New Year’s Eve, and he kind of convinced me to stay. So I did. And it also coincided a time where I just got laid off from Reebok. So I kind of had nothing to go back to. So it was one of those why not moments where in my you know, early 20s, I kind of just up and left Boston and moved to LA, which was great. And and and they’re because of my connections, they are actually network my way into one of the large talent agencies for a job there. So I entered the world of Hollywood, which was and then working for a talent agency like united talent agency, who kind of had this storied sort of lifestyle of, you know, you start at the bottom, you start as a mailroom clerk when you’re in the agent training program, which is what I entered in. 

Mo Chanmugham  7:13  

So he idea here was, I’m going to be a Hollywood agent, you know, there that that seemed really exciting to me. We were an agency that at the time was representing people like Madonna and Ben Stiller and Jim Carrey. And, you know, you know, he was he was celebrities like that. So, I totally fell for it right, I fell for that Hollywood dream of working with these big time actors being someone’s agent. That was my road. So So I actually started the law school process I’ve taken the L sat I even had applied to some law schools, but because I moved out to LA actually deferred my applications and just kind of put that law school Dream on hold. And, and it was so so my time working at the agency and working my way up out of the mailroom, you get to be a junior agent on someone’s an assistant on someone’s desk. And then you graduate to being an assistant agent, and then a junior agent, and then eventually a full fledged agent, which takes about six or seven years to sort of get to that place. So it’s really interesting, the agency world had a very sort of, there was like a lot of hierarchy and formality of decorum, almost like a law firm, where you kind of build your way up to partner.

Mo Chanmugham  8:24  

And, and what I saw in that, in that role was, there was a lot of a lot of that the cliches about Hollywood came true. So sure, it was exciting to be there. But really, I don’t know if you’ve, you’re familiar with the series of entourage on HBO, where you’ve got, you know, that agent is yelling at his assistant every day, and just being super mean to him and making his life miserable. That ended up being my life. So that was like very true to true of like a true life story here where, as an assistant, I was, you know, sort of at the mercy of an agent that just, you know, you couldn’t make happy. These are very, really demanding people, and not in a reasonable way. And so what I got to see from the inside working on the inside of Hollywood was that there’s a lot of things I liked about it. But there was a lot of things I didn’t like about it, and be someone from the east coast and someone outside of that Hollywood bubble, I could see how sort of off this was and how strange this was. And so I knew this wasn’t like where I wanted to sort of hang my career and build my way up the ladder. And quite frankly, I remember having that thought of when I looked at who was leading the agency, like all the senior partners, there was very few people I admired want it to be like, and that was very telling to me. A lot of them had really sort of messed up personal lives and just like we just mean unhappy people because Hollywood really felt like you know, the worst part of high school is very cliquish cool kids were mean to everybody else. And of course you know that though I wanted to know part of that. So I lasted about a year there and realized that this wasn’t going to be my my way. What I wanted to do next.

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:00  

Let me jump in. Because I feel like you already shared a whole bunch of really cool, interesting thoughts about how you were making decisions, and then hypotheses you were testing and the lessons that were learned from that. And I feel like in in the telling, there are some spots that I want to dig in a little bit more, because I have a feeling you’ve got some more juicy insights to share.

Lisa Lewis Miller  10:20  

So first, let me start with it sounds like when you were working at Reebok, that there were some things that were really fulfilled for you, like your ability to have access to an organization that really felt like a great team, a great culture, a great lifestyle. I mean, if I had known when I was little that I was going to be playing basketball with Allen Iverson one day, I would have lost my mind, I lost my mind, that would have been dream achieved. But it also feels like you had a real moment within that role. Where you realize that that wasn’t how you wanted to bring your strengths and gifts to the world, that you could do that work. But it wasn’t feeling satisfying. It wasn’t feeling life giving. So when you were making your transition out to LA, and working in this agency environment, did you at that point, have a hypothesis of you know, reback didn’t fit? Like that bowl of porridge was too cold? Here’s what I think might fit better? Or was it coming from more of a place of nervousness or desperation? Because you’re in between things you wanted to land anywhere? Or was it almost coming back to a similar kind of mindset of let me optimize towards something that’s really cool, and high profile and hard to get into?

Mo Chanmugham  11:40  

Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a great question. You know, so I feel very lucky, because I think all of the jobs I’ve done, whether it was at Reebok, and then and then later at the agency, and then later at, you know, working in house as an attorney at Def Jam, those were all jobs I wanted in all jobs I was optimizing for, these are hard jobs to get, they weren’t just like, let me just go work at a Hollywood agency, like I was, I knew how difficult was to get in there. And the only reason I got in there was because a very special connection I had to someone who’s already working there. So so I was certainly choosing, you know, I chose that path of going to work at the agency. One because it just sounded like a really cool job. And to you know, there’s that aspect of Here you are, you are going to be someone helping others with their careers. So it seemed like a really interesting way, you know, just seemed like an interesting career path, like I, from the outside looking in. I you know, that’s what attracted me to it. It was it was it was a cool job. But it was also a job where, you know, I felt like I had the skill set to really excel, which was just, you know, relating with people building relationships, things like that.

Lisa Lewis Miller  12:50  

Well, one of the other things that’s interesting about that particular, outside in perspective on the role is that, you know, if we look at what you’re doing today, with the executive coaching work, there’s a through line there, that when you were looking at the talent agency, you’re thinking, How do I help people create beautiful, meaningful, lucrative careers? Ultimately, what that looked like when you were actually in the doing right, when you were in the thick of it was not nearly feeling the way that you wanted to feel. But the intentionality and the hypothesis that led you there sounds like it was still fairly spot on fairly well calibrated for what you’ve ended up doing today.

Mo Chanmugham  13:31  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, hindsight is 2020. Right. Looking back, I can kind of connect the dots and see what’s sort of been the thing that’s attracted me to to the work that I do. Absolutely.

Lisa Lewis Miller  13:41  

Now, one more question on the agency role. And when people are thinking about these high profile, very coveted, very difficult to land roles, and they’re thinking about ways to be the best and ways to stand out. What you just articulated was, the only reason you landed that job was because you had an awesome connection there. And, you know, all the data about what helps people land jobs, particularly at procedures organizations totally bears that out that relationships are a currency of gold. But I’m curious, how did that relationship get cultivated? Elementary, or was it intentional?

Mo Chanmugham  14:21  

Yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, I feel very lucky and it’s just such a such a hard thing to replicate, you know, so when I tell people my story, it’s not like this can happen to anyone. So even even with working at Reebok, my, the person that was the head of online marketing at Reebok was also my marketing professor. And I took his class senior year. And, you know, I and so there’s these like, really nice serendipitous connections. But you know, I’m also someone who really stood out to him because I’m in a class with 30 others marketing seniors who would have loved to have gotten that job as well, right. So I make I make it a point to, You know, make an imprint make a good impression, and, you know, show people that I’m interested in what they’re doing, you know, so I build that. So I’ve somehow always been aware of relationships being the the most high leverage thing I can do to advance my career and just continue to advance. So I’m glad I learned that lesson young. 

Mo Chanmugham  15:22  

And so, so that’s kind of how it happened to Reebok and then to what happened in in LA working in Hollywood, it was through a very, like, random connection, my girlfriend at the time, it’s someone she went to college with. So I was already buddies with him, he is actually a cousin of a very famous film director, who, you know, he worked at the agency. And so it just, it was just a matter of him sending my resume to someone in HR, and they were happy to interview me. Now, that being said, I got the interview based on my connection, you know, to this person, I went through three rounds of interviews, you know, three different executives at that company, one with the senior partner, you know, a senior level, you know, agent who represents people, you know, in my interview, I think he took a call from Britney Spears at the time I remember. 

Mo Chanmugham  16:13  

So I was able to, you know, perform in those interviews, to really showcase why I wanted to work there. So I wasn’t just kind of like showing up with like my connection and saying, Hey, I’m here, you got to have to win them over. But like, I share that to the audience as well. It’s Yes, connections are important. They’re the things that have gotten me indoors, I would have never gotten in, where, you know, most people worry about grades, I talk to lawyers all the time, they worry about the schools they went to, in my experience, none of that has mattered. It has been it has been the strength of relationships, but then also, me being able to perform once I’m standing in front of someone, and making them feel comfortable that they would want to bring me on to their team. So there’s, you know, there’s that mix of what needs to happen.

Lisa Lewis Miller  16:58  

Yeah, I think that what you’re underlining is, number one, taking an interest in people and being memorable. And asking for support is an incredibly valuable thing. You know, so many people when they are thinking about making a move, if they’re unemployed, or if they’re currently in a position and they’re trying to move to the next thing, start to get a little shy and a little skittish and a little clammed up when it comes to really leaning on your network. And the people that you know, and the people that they know, of, you know, why wouldn’t want my, my girlfriend’s cousin to ask anybody that’s just that feels too far. It feels like I’m being too pushy. And I love that the punchline of your story is this right out being willing to put myself out there, because it’s those weak ties, right? 

Lisa Lewis Miller  17:45  

It’s the people who have diverse networks, or own who could be the most powerful advocates for us. But the other thing that you’re talking about with performing is really important too, because I did not mean to ever imply that you just magically got plucked out of the world, it just got dropped into this agency. But I think that the emphasis on creating value, serving, showing up paying attention, doing the best work that you can, is obviously a fabulous thing for people to have in mind as they’re thinking about where they want to go next. But now, let’s come back into the decision point in your story where you realize that there’s nobody at the talent agency who is in leadership, who you feel so excited to replicate their career path that you want to stay. So what was the thought process and the new hypothesis that started building in that season?

Mo Chanmugham  18:38  

Yeah, so the the new hypothesis back then was, I knew this wasn’t where I wanted to be. But because of my experience, as an agent, as an assistant to an agent, you work very closely with the clients, attorneys as well with their managers with all the other people they work with. And I could tell within the lawyer world, there’s a little bit of a little more power, respect and decorum within the attorney world that I felt was missing in the agency world. And so that kind of put me back on the path to thinking about law school, and also thinking about going to be an entertainment lawyer. And so that’s where sort of all those worlds everything all that experience sort of came together. And and it sort of fed me to to go down that path. So that’s when I decided to reapply to law school. I’d also been living in LA for about almost three years at the time. And I felt like now that the sort of agency dream was over. I was like, sort of I’d lost direction. At that point. It was time to sort of regroup and so I applied to all the law schools I’d apply to on the west on the East Coast anyway. 

Mo Chanmugham  19:44  

So it was a good time for me to go back home to Boston at the time and and regroup myself. So I moved back to Boston, got accepted into law school there, and then spent the next three years doing my best to cultivate my network within Boston around what Whatever sort of sports or entertainment related opportunity I could find, so that included, you know, figuring out who the attorneys who did sports entertainment in Boston, understanding, you know, there’s a lot of like independent film production companies, there’s a tiny music scene in Boston. I knew if I wanted to go big, I had to either go back to LA or move to New York City. So that was going to be like my plan after graduation, but I needed to sort of maximize my time in Boston and meet the right people there. So networking is always the thing I lean on. You know, for my own sense of let me learn more about this industry. I think that’s just a fun way to do it is go immerse myself with the people who are in it, and build relationships and learn from them. That’s I’d rather do that than read a book about, you know, how to manage an artist, I’d rather go to a show and meet the artists and meet his manager and build a relationship that way. 

Mo Chanmugham  20:52  

And to your point, that’s something that’s natural to me, and something I enjoy doing. But I work with clients all the time, who would never imagine doing that, right? That scares them. They’re worried about getting rejected, they don’t want to bother people, you know, they have their own story about it, where I have a different story about it. And something that I’m excited to do. I’m happy to show up and talk to strangers. I think I’m in the minority there. But, But to your point, I think we all have that story. And what it’s either serving us or it’s not serving as especially when it comes to networking.

Lisa Lewis Miller  21:20  

So let’s fast forward to the part where you end up at Def Jam.

Mo Chanmugham  21:23  

Yes.

Lisa Lewis Miller  21:25  

you’re in one of the things that I love about your story, Mo is that you’ve worked at three jobs that were a dream jobs for you in the moment, that would be dream jobs for many people. But even with all the stars seeming like they’ve aligned, even with the prestige, even with the opportunities, there was something inside of your gut that felt like things weren’t quite right. So tell us about what happened there.

Mo Chanmugham  21:49  

Yeah, yeah. So So Def Jam. Yeah. I mean, I couldn’t imagine a better job coming out of law school, I essentially into my dream job coming out of law school, it was it was what I went to law school for was to go be an entertainment lawyer. And I was happy to move to New York and work for Def Jam, which by the way happened because my best friend from college, I knew somebody who worked in their A&R department. And through that introduction, she introduced me to someone else in the legal department. And then, and then I was able to take it from there. But again, you know, the power of the network, and sort of weak ties, as you said. So that’s how I ended up there. And I was very excited in the beginning, you know, very happy to be there, eager to learn, just absorb everything from how to be a good lawyer, but also was very aware, especially in the entertainment world, it’s all about who you know. So I was having a great time, not only sort of getting to know, the people I was working with, but also you know, here I am living in New York City, an attorney at Def Jam, I was spending a lot of you know, New York City at the time had just a great music scene. 

Mo Chanmugham  22:49  

So I was going to showcases at night, meeting other up and coming artists meeting other people in the music industry, because I knew that would be sort of the thing that bolstered my career as if I wanted to stay here, you know, really, the idea was not so much to work for Def Jam, but the dream was to, you know, represent the next Jay Z. So I was spending my nights and weekends going out meeting people and trying to hustle that way. And it was fun for a while, you know, I was there for about two years, and I moved over to Sony Music as well. But but the but the day to day of working as an attorney in house, whether you’re at a big record label, or big bank is very much you’re sitting at your desk, and you’re looking at contracts, and you’re, you know, making revisions, drafting things. Sure, you know, luckily, I’m in the music industry. So I’m calling, you know, Sony to see if we could use the rights to Beyonce song on our album, right, you know, so at least I’m talking about fun stuff. But at the end of the day, the day to day work of an in house attorney just wasn’t really like what I wanted to spend my life doing. 

Mo Chanmugham  23:54  

And so I would say about two or three years into my legal career, I was already sort of I was again having these thoughts of like, is this what I really want to do. And so it might sound strange that here I was, I invested my time and going to law school, taking the bar, becoming an attorney to only realize I don’t want to be an attorney anymore. And it just, you know, it might be surprising to non attorneys, but a lot of people go to law school without any clue what it’s like to be an attorney. It’s just sort of a nice sort of default smart thing to do. What you know, so like, there’s a lot of default people who are in legal careers without having given it much much thought I gave it a little bit of thought and and really I was just going off the strength of again, what I knew from the outside looking in. And and you know, quite frankly, anything like that could look exciting until you get to the day to day so sometimes it’s hard, right? And so now a big piece of what I do is help clients validate that idea, right? You do have to go a little deeper than things Oh, I’d love to change careers and go, you know, go into consulting or strategy or work for a tech company. Sure. That’s like, that’s the thing that excites people these days. But let’s do a little bit more digging, because there’s a little bit more to you finding fulfilling career then, you know, landing at a cool tech company. 

Mo Chanmugham  25:17  

So, you know, so I was having those thoughts a few years into my career. And then that became, that’s when I started to understand that this wasn’t about sort of, because at that point, I didn’t know what I wanted to do next, there wasn’t anything else that was exciting me. And at that point, I kind of scared myself too. It’s like, here I am. I’m now in like, my third career as a lawyer, it’s not just like a career that you kind of stumble into. So I’ve invested a lot of time and being here, if I’m going to make a jump to something else, I really got to be sure that this something else is going to be the right thing. And so that’s that, you know, to your point about earlier in the introduction, that’s when I went on this journey of really figuring out what I wanted to do, both, you know, from a professional standpoint, but I knew that there was like, something inside that I needed to figure out as well. Like, my radar was off, right, I was choosing things in a way that I thought would make me happy, but it wasn’t. So I had to knew I knew I had some personal development work to do as well. So that’s kind of was the beginning of my journey into personal development, and eventually, you know, finding coaching.

Lisa Lewis Miller  26:18  

I love that. And your, your story is both unique and deeply personal. But at a lot of levels. It’s not unique at all, because there are so many high performers, high achievers, who create the life of their dreams, only to realize the dream does not match up with to what they truly want, and how they want to feel day to day and who they want to be and the kind of energy they want to be in. And noticing that, after Now, having presumably hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loan debt from grad school on top of you is a really scary thing to think about. So how did you even start with validating with even coming up with new hypotheses and then validating the hypotheses to figure out what would be a good jump for you, that would still allow for you to be able to pay down your student loans, but to feel like you’re getting into more of the fulfillment path that you’re wanting?

Mo Chanmugham  27:15  

Yeah, so a few things I’ll point to here is, there was it was, it was a process of first. You know, I’ve I probably did what most people do, I went on job boards and started looking for a new job and couldn’t really nothing excited me about what was online. So that became sort of something that I kind of like pushed to the side. And then again, you know, I did what I always do, which is I looked at who in my life is doing something interesting and exciting. And let me go see what that’s all about. So I was doing a lot of coffees and informational interviews. There a couple, a couple of my friends have their own businesses, and I was kind of interested in sort of what it would be like to be an entrepreneur, because this was sort of at the 2008 2009 time were, you know, entrepreneurship was picking up as sort of the the trendy thing to do. So I did a lot of exploring in that sense. 

Mo Chanmugham  28:09  

And one thing that’s important to understand is that I think a lot of people make the mistake of they’re sitting where they are right now they’re their lawyer at their desk, and they’re trying to figure out what they want to do next. And without even sort of testing or exploring options, they’re already sort of crossing things off their lists that they might be interested in, based on some assumptions that they have, mostly that they don’t have experience doing that other thing, right. And so what I want to say to people were thinking like that is, you know, I would have never made the jump into coaching, if I was sitting at my desk as a lawyer, and I came across coaching, and my next thought was, well, how am I going to become a coach and pay my bills and make six figures and, and how can I make this a viable career path? Like, to me, I, when I talk to my clients, I always tell them, we’re at step one right now, and you’re trying to jump to step 100. And this is not how this works. So we’re not gonna even try and figure that out right now really, what I want you to do is go from step one to two. 

Mo Chanmugham  29:04  

And I kind of intuitively did that I you know, I wasn’t working with a coach at the time. But I didn’t give myself any kind of pressure to say like, I’ve got to figure this out. I’ve got to if like the next thing I pick has to be then my next six figure career. And I don’t know why I wasn’t thinking that maybe there was a little bit there. But I knew what I wanted to do was so far off from being an attorney, that I knew it wasn’t going to just be like one jump to this next six figure career. So I kind of like intuitively knew that. So that’s one thing I’ll say about that process is I was very much open to just exploring whatever interested me it didn’t matter how much money it made, I was really more looking for let me understand this from the inside out, versus just assuming it looks cool from the outside. So I was very much you know, looking into looking at it from from that perspective of wanting to understand it better from the inside out. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  29:54  

Well, riff a little bit more on that because it’s a philosophy that we we talk about all the time here at Korea. clarity. But I feel like it’s hard to abstractly wrap your brain around how to get to know a role from the inside out rather than looking at it from the outside in. Because it feels like the only way to get a job is to have a job, the only way to get into an industry is already have experience in the industry. So you know, how on earth do you find a way to see what it’s like to be in that world before you’ve already made the high risk? big leap into it?

Mo Chanmugham  30:25  

Yeah, yeah, that’s a great question. So there’s a few ways to go about doing this, I think sort of the easiest way is to talk to someone who’s doing that, that kind of work, right? Have a conversation with them, what’s their day to day like, I even shadowed some people at their jobs. So this is these are some of my entrepreneur friends where I could just do that and show up at work and hang out with them. So shadowing is one thing. But I would eventually worked for me. So I guess in the beginning of my sort of career exploration process, there were things that I was interested in, I explore them, and I ended up crossing a lot of them off my list. After the exploration, after sort of seeing more about it, I realized it wasn’t the right fit for me. 

Mo Chanmugham  31:06  

And so part of during this whole time, someone, a friend of mine had invited me to a personal development seminar in New York City. And I went really just out of my own interest had nothing to do with my job search. It had nothing to do with my career. But I went because I was always interested in that, in that topic, write some of my favorite books from from college, I was a business major, but like, my favorite class was organizational behavior. And I loved books, like Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and good to great and those types of things I’ve always loved, like the psychology of business. And so I’ve always read those types of personal development books. So I went based on my own interest. And it was there in that in that seminar that I was first exposed to, I didn’t know it was coaching at the time that I was first exposed to this conversation of living life more intentionally, recognizing your limiting, limiting beliefs, choosing differently, choosing to believe things differently, like I just wasn’t having this conversation anywhere in my real life. And it just came at that right time where I was just like, oh, wow, this is really interesting stuff. And so I decided to take more of those classes. And it was in those classes that I met people who were professional coaches. And so I was introduced to this world of coaching, very serendipitously. 

Mo Chanmugham  32:19  

But, you know, it’s important to note that like, I encourage my clients to do this as well. So if there’s a way for you to take a class in something to really immerse yourself in it, that’s another good way to figure out if it’s right for you or not, and you use the word feeling a lot. And I use the same with my client is that you’re not necessarily just looking for a job title, you’re looking for feeling. And so when I was in this, when I was taking these coaching classes, and I was talking to these coaches, and learning more about coaching, I also got to volunteer as a coach, like once you take a class, you can then sort of volunteer and assist other students. And that experience of having other students to coach was really fulfilling as well. So it started taking off a lot of boxes for me. And I didn’t make the conclusion right away that oh, this is the thing I wanted to do next, I was just really loving it. So I was kind of I was an attorney by day. And then I was sort of immersed in this world of personal development by night. And it was mostly for me, it was for my own benefit. And then at some point, I do remember sort of thinking like, I love this work. 

Mo Chanmugham  33:18  

And it’s helping me sort of see myself differently, it’s giving me more confidence, because Because really, when we talk about that sort of to your point, that career change process, there’s a there’s internally what’s happening is there’s a there’s a real, a lot of self doubt, people are dealing with a real lack of confidence naturally. So because here we are, we’re leaving something we know to jump into the unknown. And so I didn’t realize this was happening to me. But there was just like a lot of limiting beliefs I had about doing something different. You know, here I was an attorney, I’d worked at Def Jam and united talent agency at Reebok. I done a lot. But like, for some reason, this idea of doing something different seems so foreign to me. And it seemed like impossible to do. And I just thought those thoughts were just very sort of responsible and practical thoughts. I didn’t even think to question all these thoughts. I was having my head that was sort of preventing me from from making the week. And so coaching really helped me address that issue. And and gave me some great self awareness to understand that, sure, these thoughts exist, but they’re not the truth. 

Mo Chanmugham  34:19  

And so it gave me a new perspective. And you know, the technique of reframing things reframe your thoughts and beliefs, I found incredibly helpful to help me sort of get unstuck and start moving in the right direction. And that’s when I realized I knew a bunch of other 30 somethings working in corporate America in New York City who were struggling with the same thing I was, and that’s when I kind of put two and two together and thought, wow, I would love to do this. And and, and that’s important to know, too, right? Like, this was the first time I was like, I would love to do this and it had nothing to do with like, who the company was I would work for or any the industry that I was at was more like, I would do this for free. You know, so so it was and that is basically how I started coaching as well. It’s like Did it for free for a lot of people. Um, but that’s that’s, you know, to your point of like, how do we validate? How do we figure out if this is a good idea or not? It’s, it’s, it’s getting involved. It’s like joining a community, it’s taking a class, it’s volunteering your time, it’s finding any possible way to, you know, test drive a career, that way you test drive a car. So you don’t have to make this like leap of faith commitment into a new career that you’re not even really sure you want to do. So it’s about helping clients de risk that decision by giving them these sort of creative ways to test drive careers.

Lisa Lewis Miller  35:35  

I love that. And you said something a moment ago that I want to ask you to say more about because I know that in your work as a coach these days, you do a lot of work with people on the inner game and the mental game, and how are you making decisions? What are you prioritizing what matters to you? What are you keeping on the list? And what are you taking off the table? And you’re talking a moment ago about limiting beliefs and reframes. And I’m wondering, you know, for somebody who’s listening to this, who may not be as familiar with the concept of reframing, or a limiting belief, maybe somebody who is listening to this who’s thinking, I’m totally over that I figured that out. I reframe my beliefs all the time. What’s an example of something that might get somebody tripped up or stuck, particularly if they’re in a type of industry, like finance, like consulting? Like, like law, where it took a lot to get into that role? You’re making a lot of money, and it’s hard to see where else you could go that you would make even close to comparable amounts?

Mo Chanmugham  36:34  

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I, you know, I was recently talking to a client that just started working with me. And he has worked in the finance space for most of his career, even more specifically, in the health care industry. And it sounded like it was something that kind of, he just fell into, straight out of undergrad, he’s a finance major, and then went into finance. And, you know, His story is, it’s what he’s doing, you know, 11 years later. And he recently decided to go to grad school. So he went to get his MBA, and on the strength of, he got some advice from one of his mentors at work, should I go get a CFA and get sort of more specialized in finance? Or should he go get my MBA in the in the person advise him to get his MBA, because it could open you up to other career options, which is really what he wanted. 

Mo Chanmugham  37:22  

So he went and did this. And he fell into the trap of doing what was easy. So he took the sort of the path of least resistance were in grad school, which is especially going to get your MBA, it’s a great place to finally make that career pivot. And so he was looking at other roles, talking to people in strategy and consulting and things like that sounded interesting to him. But to your point about reframes and limiting beliefs, his his limiting belief was, well, I’ve always been in finance, I’ve always worked in finance. So this is all I can do. And so he stayed on that path. So he graduated his MBA program, and now has another finance job and another healthcare company. And so, you know, part of our work together, because we’re just getting started, will be to pop that bubble, right to pop that belief that like, I’ve only done finance, so I can only do finance moving forward. And so it’s easier said than done. So where I would go with the reframe is really just a question of, how might you work in a different industry? Like how might you translate your finance skills into into another industry, like what else what other industries would sort of reward the skills that you already have? 

Mo Chanmugham  38:37  

So it’s about even just being willing to explore versus assuming you can’t, that’s, that’s really at the base, you know, at the bottom of what I try to get my clients to do is stop assuming you can’t, and just be willing to explore. And, and so that’s what that’s, you know, that’s kind of example of how I help clients get get unstuck, because because, again, these are smart, capable, accomplished people. But the smartest people can’t see their own blind spots, I have a coach for the same reason. We need it’s helpful to have someone who’s trained in seeing these things, these are blind spots, seeing things objectively to help us, you know, get out of our own way.

Lisa Lewis Miller  39:14  

I love that. And I think that it’s really important to have somebody who can give you an alternate perspective to help sharpen your own thinking, especially when you’re in a career like finance, like law in these places. The amount of money that you’re going to be able to make in your career is equivalent to the strength of the relationship network that you have. And how, how sharp how precise how clear your thinking is, how well you can do strategy, how well you can see the big picture. And if you have some of these areas where you don’t have an awareness that you’re carrying around an assumption about the way the world works, that can be limiting in the possibilities ahead of you. Having somebody who is your coach who’s on your team who can see it The bigger picture, who can then bring and shine some light into that lack of awareness can be a game changer and a way to differentiate yourself from your peers, even if you end up saying in the exact same industry?

Mo Chanmugham  40:13  

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that’s why I found, you know, the coaching was so helpful for me to get out of my own way. And, and especially, you know, here we are, we work with people on their careers and and sometimes the career piece can feel very, more tactical and strategic, like, let me you know, help me update my resume, how do I find a new job? How do I, you know, make this career transition. And, and I make it clear to anyone who’s working with me is, is there’s, there’s three pieces to it. There’s the mindset piece that’s underlying everything, because I can give you the strategy, I can tell you to go network, I can tell you how to present yourself on LinkedIn, I know that stuff will work if you’re too scared to do it. If you see or if you think it’s not going to work, right, like, you know, a lot of people will, you know, will try to view things, but really underlying their activity is this limiting belief of like, this won’t really work for me, or people don’t want to help me or I don’t want to bother other people. So it can’t just be about strategy for people who are thinking about, you know, finding a more fulfilling career. It’s got they’ve got to start with the mindset piece, and then later on the strategy. And then of course, with coaching, you want to layer on that accountability piece.

Lisa Lewis Miller  41:21  

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the longer that I do this work, the more that I realized that people need most, they may think is the skill building piece they may think is the tactical piece, but it’s actually learning more tools around emotional agility and emotional management. As if you are in a situation where your emotions take over your decision making capacity, the fear, be anger, be it hopelessness, the game’s over. So being able to emotionally keep yourself in the game by managing what’s coming up, not ignoring it, not voting it off the island, but learning how to deal with it and process it and find a path forward. That’s the key to anything that we want in our careers or in our lives.

Mo Chanmugham  42:07  

Yeah, yeah, it’s foundational to making any kind of change. 

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:11  

I love this. So Mo if somebody has been listening to you talking about limiting beliefs, and test driving options, and the power of networking and relationships, and they are wanting to learn more about how you support people with these sorts of things, what are the best places for people to connect with you?

Mo Chanmugham  42:29  

Yeah, really, the best place is to come visit my website at www.mgccoaching.com. That’s really the best place to find me. I’m also very active on LinkedIn. But you can find me through my website, that’s probably the best way to find me.

Lisa Lewis Miller  42:47  

Awesome. Well, Mo, thank you so much for coming on. And dropping all these knowledge bombs, sharing some pretty awesome humble brags about the different choices that you’ve made along the way and the opportunities that have been afforded to you and the ways that now you support other people in creating dreams that feel as good on the inside as they look on the outside.

Mo Chanmugham  43:05  

Thank you. Thank you so much fun.

Lisa Lewis Miller  43:07  

And for any of you listening, we’d love to hear your feedback. Whether it’s a direct email to me at Lisa at GetCareerClarity.com or as a review on Apple podcasts. We want to build resources and tools to help you have a happier, healthier, more meaningful relationship with your work. And any ideas that you have about ways that we can serve you better are hugely appreciated. So don’t forget to go get your tools goodies and links from today’s episode at GetCareerClarity.com/podcast. And if you’re interested in learning more about the Career Clarity method, you can pick up the Career Clarity book at GetCareer Clarity.com/book. And remember, if you don’t love your work, we should talk because life is too short to be doing work that doesn’t light you up. Talk to you next time.

About the Author Lisa Lewis

Lisa is a career change coach helping individuals feeling stuck to find work that fits. She helps people clarify who they are, what they want most, and what a great job for them looks like so they can make their transition as easily as possible. Lisa completed coaching training in Jenny Blake’s Pivot Method, Danielle LaPorte’s Fire Starter Sessions, Kate Swoboda's Courageous Living Coaching Certification, and the World Coaches Institute. In addition to that, she apprenticed with the top career coaches in the country so she can do the best possible work with — and for — you. She's helped more than 500 individuals move into more fulfilling, yummy careers and would be honored to get to serve you next!

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